Southern Baptist In NC

July 11, 2007

Are Southern Baptist a Society or a Convention?

As I perused my daily blogs, I came across an interesting article here. Dr. Tony Cartledge, outgoing Editor of our state paper, links to this article. It is an article that Dr. Bill Leonard, Dean of Divnity School at Wake Forest University, appears to have originally authored in 1993 where he reviews Landmarkism in the SBC. In Dr. Leonard’s article he seems to advocate a quasi-societal form of denominational governance. This quasi-societal method would allow everyone to choose whatever fit their fancy. I will not address here the flaws and strengths of such a form. However, I would like to turn my attention to the definitions of a Society and a Convention in order to make a comparison.

The following definitions come from Dr. Leon McBeth’s, book The Baptist Heritage.

Society

The society…requires no extensive denominational machinery or approval for its work, maintains more local control, and has the advantage of a committed membership. Those not interested in the society’s cause simply do not join. To its adherents, it also seems to protect the autonomy of the churches. However, the society plan does not enlist the involvement of churches, seldom builds denominational identity and loyalty, and makes overall denominational planning and correlation difficult.

Convention

The convention plan tends to enlist the churches, build denominational identity and loyalty, and allows correlation and balance between the various causes sponsored. Its adherents feel it preserves the autonomy of the churches, though it does call for a degree of centralization. However, at times the convention plan proves cumbersome since the whole body must deliberate and decide on all kinds of work. Problems arise when some voting members have greater interest in one cause, like foreign missions, and lesser commitment to others. This sometimes leads to rivalry as leaders seek to enlist support for the causes they represented. In general, the convention plan calls for more denominational machinery. The convention plan emphasizes the denomination more, and it creates more denomination to emphasize. (p.348)

Dr. McBeth also spoke of the characteristics of each and made a clear point to say that while conventions were made up of churches, usually from a selected geographical region, societies were made up of individuals.

Dr. Bill Leonard, in his above referenced article, held for his premise that the SBC had a center. Those controlling the center were the ones controlling the convention. Dr. Leonard goes on to state that the SBC center had always been tolerant of factions as long as it was not extreme factions. He used for his example the faction caused by Crawford Toy and contrasted it with J Frank Norris. It is interesting to note that while Toy was removed Dr. E.Y Mullins hired Dr. W.O Carver, who according to Dr. Leonard, held views on Scripture similar to that of Toy.

While Dr. Leonard and I will not be together on many theological issues I do commend him on something he apparently could see back in 1993. He wrote;

it appears that the real problem of the American denominational future involves the issue of identity. The denominational mechanisms that shaped identity and enabled traditions to be passed on to succeeding generations are fast breaking apart or addressing only one of the multiple subgroups. Perhaps the most essential questions for Southern Baptists are: When all is said and done, what will remain that is discernibly, historically Baptist?

I agree! If Dr. Leonard’s thesis of a center is correct, and I suspect it is, and if that center is what keeps us from wandering too far left or too far right, then I suspect the major problem within the SBC would be one of Baptist Identity. This identity within the context of the SBC is an identity rooted in Scripture and actualized through a convention form of governance. For an example of a convention form of government moving to a society form, notice the CBF and other splinters that have formed since the Conservative Resurgence. They say they cooperate but they have taken on a form that allows for everyone to pick their pet projects and support that themselves. I do commend the CBF on their cooperation but everyone knows if there is something they do not like they just stop sending money to support it. Also, that is the reason they are able to report the churches as they do. They are looking at this from a societal method instead of a convention form of governance. They report churches as their supporters that clearly are not supporting the CBF. They do this because one member of that church has given funds to them and listed their church. They do not see the church supporting them they see the individual giving the money. Remember a society is made up of individuals not churches. Is this a fair reporting of the numbers? It depends on who you ask.

Notice how the society form has crept into the SBC. Many in the current debate have spoken of forming something that will enable support of missionaries with a PPL. Then the individual pastors may lead their churches to re-direct some of their IMB support to support those Missionaries with a PPL. We have had a statement from the EC adopted that some say is a maximum and others say is a minimum guide for agencies establishing doctrine. Those that advocate it being a maximum insist this vague statement says something it never was intended to say. Thus they find a cause that individuals can rally around. This screams society over convention.

Conclusion

What does all of this mean for the SBC? For me, it reveals where I may differ with others. That disagreement is embeded in the understanding of how the SBC operates. I disagree somewhat with Dr. Leonard about the center of the SBC when he says; “That center was grounded in southern culture, denominational programs and a theology specific enough to be identifiably Baptist but general enough to permit the presence of various sectarian subgroups.” While the southern culture and denominational programs are recognized in the convention, I believe the denominational program did more to projecting the convention forward to what she is today than southern charm. However, I agree with Dr. Leonard that specific theology is something that kept the center glued together. But, I would go further and say it was the main issue that kept the center glued together. This Baptist specific theology is what I believe to be somewhat missing in our SBC center today. We appear to focus more on a general theology that allows for the various sectarian subgroups.

Our center needs the glue of specific Baptist Identity which keeps us moving in a convention form of government. If we continue to loose the specifics of Baptist theology the glue of our center will change from super glue to the glue on the back of sticky notes. Once this happens we then acquiesce to a society form of government–something we came out of when we left the Triennial Convention in 1845.

27 Comments

  1. Great job. Very well said.

    Identity is indeed tied to Theology and thus is the main issue.

    TG

    Comment by Tim G — July 11, 2007 @ 11;17 pm

  2. Yessssireee.

    Comment by Bart Barber — July 12, 2007 @ 6;40 am

  3. Tim,

    I don’t hardly agree with “We appear to focus more on a general theology that allows for the various sectarian subgroups.” But, you have used the names of two guys here that unless they have greatly changed since the old days would consider Tim, cb, Tim G. and Ole Bart as nothing more than narrow-minded goat herders.

    I was there when the BSSB refused to publish McBeth’s book and for good reason. Now, Bill Leonard, well……….. long history. You were very kind:-) Far more so than I have ever been. I had better just leave it at that.

    cb

    Comment by cb scott — July 12, 2007 @ 7;20 am

  4. Tim,

    This idea of the BF&M as a maximum standard would surely spell doom for our trustee system, and the end of the convention as we know it.

    Of course, the end of the convention as we know it may in fact be the goal…

    Comment by Wes Kenney — July 12, 2007 @ 8;23 am

  5. Tim: I agree we should not wander far from the center. Isn’t the center the BF&M, and Missions?

    Isn’t disqualifying missionary candidates for reasons not clearly scripture and not addressed in the BF&M wandering away from both of those?

    Wes: yes it would spell the end of the trustee system, if the trustees cannot and will not see themselves as accountable to the SBC. As it should. And saying that is the goal, is baloney, no matter how you slice it.

    Comment by Bob Cleveland — July 12, 2007 @ 9;16 am

  6. Bob,

    My point was that there are many who are unhappy with the convention as it currently exists, and desire to remake it in the image they prefer. Thus, “the end of the convention as we know it may in fact be the goal…” is fairly obvious, it seems to me.

    I like baloney…

    ;-)

    Comment by Wes Kenney — July 12, 2007 @ 9;22 am

  7. Tim,
    Great post. I love the definitions and the discussion about Soc. vs Conv. I would also add the difference between a Conv. and centralized Denominations. I am a fan of Societies in general but not as a replacement for the Convention.

    The “blogging” group drew some of us in at first because they seem to be seeking reform in continuing spirit of the Resurgence. In time, it became clear that it wasn’t as simple as that. I am not attacking them by any means. I’m simply acknowledging that there isn’t a so called cohesive movement. The “blogging” reformers (i hate trying to find a label) represent guys who are all over the map.

    I aid all that to make this point. In my circles we are dissatisfied with the extensive amount of waste through out the Conv. This is especially true at the State levels. the more we got involved the more we learned about how the CP was split between the different levels ect. No evil accusations here just describing our experience. When we figured out the 50% of our CP monies was not making to Mission field. I’m not saying that anybody was keeping it a secret we just didn’t know that the State took a cut first. In Ms, only $17 out every $100 actually makes it to the field. re-directing is going to start happening more and more but it isn’t going to be for all the same reasons. The untalked about disaster of the Convention was the vote that required CP dollars to go through the State. It was not originally intended to do that….it simply became the tradition. The CP will still be supported by people like me but having missions dollars going to Hand bell training isn’t going to cut it.

    I think we need (i know that we won’t) to limit what the CP can go to. I can see a day in the future where I would ask or lead a Church to decrease our % to the CP and send the rest through Lottie moon or directly to EC. If we don’t start seeing the States moving toward AT LEAST a 50/50 split I think we will see a lot of that. My deacons were dumb founded when they learned of how the CP was divided out.

    I hope that leaders in the Conv. can discern that there are people at here who do not support the big tent complaints who nonetheless are not satisfied with the current state of affairs.

    Comment by Perry McCall — July 12, 2007 @ 9;26 am

  8. Wes,

    I like baloney also, but not the McBeth- Leonard Brand. It has too little “meat” in it. I also do not like Boot-Strapping, BOLONEY-Eater trustees. They are too full of bad “meat” and poor filler.

    The best baloney is made right here in Alabama by Zeigler. You Sooners could do with a mess of it. It might help you to know the difference between good baloney and the bad stuff:-)

    cb

    Comment by cb scott — July 12, 2007 @ 9;29 am

  9. Wes,

    One more thing; the problem with Tim Rogers is that stinking mess people in NC call Bar-B-Q. That stuff smells and taste like Wake County on a windy morning:-) Stanky, don’t you know!

    cb

    Comment by cb scott — July 12, 2007 @ 9;34 am

  10. Bob’s point about the Trustees so directly being held accountable to the Conv. is the centralization that I am talking about. We are a Conv. If the Conv. isn’t happy then the Conv. can change who they appoint to the boards.

    Bob and I have never dialogued. I am using his statement merely as an example. I often agree with Bob and I am not picking fight with him. See the crazy stuff we have to qualify because of the tone of soo much of this blogging:)

    Comment by Perry McCall — July 12, 2007 @ 9;40 am

  11. Amen CB. Let’s stick to the issues that really matter!!

    Comment by Perry McCall — July 12, 2007 @ 9;40 am

  12. Wes: I like baloney too. My wife makes great ham salad out of it.

    Comment by Bob Cleveland — July 12, 2007 @ 9;41 am

  13. Bob,

    I hope she’s not using that Ziegler bologna. I hear it can be dangerous…

    ;-)

    Comment by Wes Kenney — July 12, 2007 @ 9;43 am

  14. Wes,

    It is people like you that could start another war between the states with such “tainted” research about the number one product of Alabama:-)

    Perry,

    I don’t think we have interacted before so I guess you really meant to put a ( :-) ) after your comment to me rather than ( !!). I am sure it was just a mistake. Therefore, I will not take it as an insult or you being too up tight or condescending.

    I hope we can be friends.

    cb

    Comment by cb scott — July 12, 2007 @ 10;18 am

  15. Absolutely CB. Being a Memphis Boy who has spent a lot of time in TX (we won’t get into why I was in TX:) I am most definitely on your side:)

    Comment by Perry McCall — July 12, 2007 @ 10;30 am

  16. Brother Tim G,

    Baptist Identity is the glue.

    Brother CB,

    Notice what has happened in the last 2 years. There appears to be a push to accept doctrine that we have never accepted as a clear Baptist Distinctive. This push is fueled by a fear of losing _______group, or ________ group, or __________group. You fill in the blank.
    Also, the authors quoted, while most definitely would not allow me to read a passage from the wordless book or lead in silent prayer at one of their meetings, are still historians. While their theology is not the same as mine they do offer some accurate historical accounts. Plus, I point you to the fact I am not one of those “fundamentalist” that everyone seems to want to define me to be. :>)

    Brother Bob,

    The center is the BF&M (as a minimum) and Evangelism. Missions flow from Evangelism. However, what seems to be advocated nowadays is a Society form of government that allows giving only to the portions that an individual deems is best. This is my point. As Southern Baptist there are things that I do not place a high priority on, such as our voice in Washington. Dr. Land is doing an excellent job and I believe he is the person that can do that job. However, if you ever give me a choice between funding the ERLC and the IMB, I will choose the IMB every time. If we come to that in the SBC do you not think the ERLC will be the one that looses? Then the SBC will loose because we will have lost a clear voice addressing the issues of the day.
    That example is the reason a convention form of government is much better that a society.

    Brother Perry,

    I believe that if you go here you will read the “official” beginning of the CP. If you go here you will read what an old war horse of the Conservative Resurgence says about the CP. From both perspectives I believe you will find that your statement about the original intent of the CP would not be completely accurate. I believe it originally began to be distributed through the state conventions. Therefore, I have not problems with the recent vote in San Antonio. I believe your statement about limiting the areas of CP involvement would be something I could get on board about.
    Now to your response to Brother Bob. The center is what trustees base their decisions on as they read the resolutions passed at the conventions. The BF&M is a minimum part of the center.
    Also, I learned something a long time ago that has helped me well. You don’t tug on Superman’s cape, you don’t mash corn on the cob, you don’t pull the mask of the ole Lone Ranger and you don’t mess around with Bob. :>)

    Brother CB (again)

    You, Brother Bob, and Brother Wes can eat all of the bologna that you want, I will stick to the best Bar-B-Q made–pork. Of course Brother Wes can find anything when it comes to the internet. But, if you keep messing with me, the next time (and I know it will not be long because you have grandbaby here in NC) you come to NC, I’ll have someone meet you at the border on I85, stick an apple in your mouth and spread your hind quarters out on a grill. :>)

    To all,

    Been doing visits all morning. Sorry for the length of the comment here.

    Blessings,
    Tim

    Comment by Tim Rogers — July 12, 2007 @ 11;30 am

  17. Brother Perry,

    I am sorry the links did not activate.

    First link
    http://www.cpmissions.net/2003/what%20is%20cp.asp

    Second link
    http://roberttenery.blogspot.com/2007/06/cooperative-program_09.html

    Blessings,
    Tim

    Comment by Tim Rogers — July 12, 2007 @ 11;34 am

  18. I want to be there when you stick an apple in CB’s mouth and do that other thing you mentioned. In fact, I’d pay to see that.

    ;-)

    Comment by Wes Kenney — July 12, 2007 @ 11;45 am

  19. Tim,

    I must now go and cut a tree from a widow’s yard, but if I safely return to this station we shall speak of ….Did you say historians?????

    cb

    Comment by cb scott — July 12, 2007 @ 2;48 pm

  20. Tim,

    Leon McBeth wrote one of the most “one sided” histories ever written. It was so bad we would not allow it to be published at the BSSB. Objectivity was not the order of the day.

    Bill Leonard, well……..I had better just leave that alone. Somebody will be calling me a mean hearted Fundamentalist. I have already been called a liberal while we were in San Antonio. I don’t want anyone to be confused as to what I am:-)

    cb

    Comment by cb scott — July 12, 2007 @ 4;42 pm

  21. Brother CB,

    As you will notice, the reference of Dr. McBeth was not the book in question. Most historians I read acknowledge the work referenced as historically accurate.

    As to Dr. Leonard, if I did not, I need to acknowledge his authorship of the work attributed to him would have areas where his bias comes through.

    I am not debating the bias of the authors, I am merely referencing items within their work that gives credence to what I see in the SBC today.

    Blessings,
    Tim

    Comment by Tim Rogers — July 12, 2007 @ 10;11 pm

  22. Brother Wes,

    If Brother CB says anything else about NC Bar-B-Q get your money ready.

    :>)

    Blessings,
    Tim

    Comment by Tim Rogers — July 12, 2007 @ 10;12 pm

  23. Not to come in late or anything, but if SBC identity is tied to theology, is there something wrong with that theology being the Baptist Faith & Message? It seems the next stop beyond that is to tie it to the whole Bible, which means we mortals will never be able to grasp it all.

    In the meantime, let’s pick out some folks we’d rather not have around, drag in some applicable theology, and ram it down their throats.

    I don’t think so.

    Comment by Bob Cleveland — July 13, 2007 @ 10;00 am

  24. Brother Bob,

    My sweet and precious Granddad, you do err when you Wade Burleson an argument like your comment does. When you Wade Burleson an argument it means that you pick one little part of it and exaggerate it to make your point.

    You say; “let’s pick out some folks we’d rather not have around, drag in some applicable theology, and ram it down their throats.” No one has said, or is saying, that the center consists of good-ole-boy network. The center is a place where the meeting of the minds come together in consensus. Anything too far removed from that center is openly debated.

    What one is saying would be the theological items that exceed that centered theological consensus. are the ones debated. Those that place a stress on the center, whether they be too far left or right, are the ones openly dealt with. The issues we deal with are agreed upon by that theological consensus center. That is how a convention works.

    A society works by finding a cause to rally around, find people that you can scare into believing that if they do not fight the battle for you, then the next step will be their theological belief thus beginning a disagreement.

    The situation we find ourselves in within the SBC today is that we have become more concerned with the general theology that the subgroups desire than on the specific Baptist theology that distinguishes us as Baptist.

    Blessings,
    Tim

    Comment by Tim Rogers — July 13, 2007 @ 10;39 am

  25. I thought that’d get a rise. Right on cue. :)

    The correct statement is that, for some reason, certain people want to further define that theology in certain areas, which has the (expected or unexpected) result of forcing people to change some things .. their baptism .. their theology .. their participation .. their careers .. their prayer habits .. or else leave. I just don’t understand the changes.

    I cannot discern their motivations. I can only observe the results.

    And I love exaggerations. At my age, I need all the embellishment I can get.

    :)

    ps: Don’t call me granddad. Truth be known, you probably really ARE closer to my grandkids’ ages than to my sons’. That’s why I no longer say I am older than some really big trees. I AM!

    Comment by Bob Cleveland — July 13, 2007 @ 10;50 am

  26. Tim,

    This post is so old, no doubt you will be the only one to read this comment. In any case, I just got around to reading the post and the comments. In general, I think you are on to something here. There are indeed some important ideas here to be considered that play into many to the issues in the SBC today.

    You said in a comment to Bob Cleveland,

    “A society works by finding a cause to rally around, find people that you can scare into believing that if they do not fight the battle for you, then the next step will be their theological belief thus beginning a disagreement.”

    My experience has been that in “societies” there is less conflict and disagreement. This is perhaps because there is less at stake. If you are in disagreement with the direction of a particular society, it is not such a major crisis to sign off, and throw in your resources and efforts with another society. It is not like you have gone through a divorce, or disowned your family or something.

    I think the CP has served us well in a lot of respects. Primarily because I believe that good stewardship, the best we can possibly do, with the talents and resources God entrusts us with, is crucial.

    My main identity, from a theological perspective, though, is not denominational. It is as a member of the Body of Christ. I cannot and will not ever divorce myself from the Body of Christ, or my essential unity with my true spiritual family. Denominations, like other human organizations, however, come and go. I will remain as a partner in a certain denomination, convention, or society, as long as it helps me to be a better steward of my talents and resources, in the context of my broader and deeper loyalty to the cause of Christ and the Body of Christ.

    Who knows though? Maybe I am off-base in something I am saying here. Maybe there are certain aspects I am not taking into consideration. Could you think of any reasons biblically why what I am saying here is not on target? I really do want to know, as the answer to these questions has important implications for me personally.

    Blessings,

    David

    Comment by David Rogers — December 13, 2007 @ 11;13 am

  27. Brother David,

    I honestly believe that denominatonalism is a Biblical Concept. Of course, I know there is no Greek word found in the Bible for denomination. What I am saying though, is that the concept of doctrinal accountability mixed with informed monetary distribution is a concept covered in Scripture. I believe that Societies, while different from denominations is structure, do not clearly advocate a Biblical concept of doctrinal accountability. Most people give to Societies without any regard as to how or who the money is spent in support.

    As to my and your loyalty to the cause of Christ, I do not think being part of a Denomination has any bearing on that. I honestly believe that my loyalty to a denomination is my loyalty to the cause of Christ. I do not know of any cause of Christ that is perfect when men are involved. Are there areas that are closer to Scripture than others? Certainly there are. In every movement there are going to be areas that are questionable. I believe it is my stewardship responsibility to God to make certain that the cause I am a part of, is as close to honoring God as can possibly be.

    I do not know if this helps or hurts. But I want you to know that I love you as a Brother in Christ and honor you in your service to our Lord.

    Blessings,
    Tim

    Comment by Tim Rogers — December 14, 2007 @ 6;39 pm


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