Southern Baptist In NC

November 27, 2007

Building Bridges–Dr. JD Grearer

Filed under: Calvinism, Dr. JD Grearer — Tim Rogers @ 8;26 pm

Calvinism and Preaching the Gospel

Romans 9:11-23

  • There is a sovereign election on how God bestows His mercy.

God bestows grace freely and in some cases electable. This is a catalyst for missions, not an impediment. The miracle is not why the Jews did not believe but that we were able to believe at all.

Why would God show selective mercy? v. 14

The reason these questions are so hard to answer is that we just do not believe that we deserve hell. God’s salvation is not for us, but for his pleasure.

  • God’s highest agenda on earth is to glorify his name. V 15; 17; 22-23

This is to be the absolute center of our lives and ministries. With this principle it keeps us from sliding into heresy.

  • This does not remove Paul’s understanding that each man holds the responsibility for his own destiny, and in some cases, the destiny of others, in his hands.

Who hardened Pharoah’s heart? Both Pharoah and God. Regeneration preceeding faith is not something that is completely sound. Matthew 11:21

We cannot take out of men’s hands the responsibility of man. The only reason we evangelize is out of obedience to God–some Calvinist say. Many people in the Bible were motivated, not by obedience, but by compassion. Matthew 13:58

Missionaries are intercessors that stand in the gap of belief between God and the lost people group. Matthew 13:58 Ezekiel 33:8

  • We must maintain the centrality of the Gospel

This teaching comes in Romans 9, not Romans 1–Martin Luther

Growing deep with God means growing deep in the souls grasp of God’s radical love and mercy in the Cross, not knowing the finer points of Calvin’s Doctrine.

2 Peter 1;5-

Are we in danger of elevating something good–some type of good works–instead of the Gospel?  What tradition is the Gospel, or the cross, central?

Identify the central problem.  The real issue is in SB are not Gospel centered people any more.

DA Carson–one generation preaches the Gospel, one generation assumes the Gospel, and the third generation forgets the Gospel.

If you can get this message through Lifeway you need to do so.  Brother JD did an excellent job.  You have to hear this message.

Building Bridges–Dr. Greg Welty

Filed under: Calvinism, Dr. Greg Welty — Tim Rogers @ 5;49 pm

+ Greg Welty – Unconditional Election and Effectual Calling

- Unconditional Election – an assertion and a denial

o God elects or chooses us for salvations – assertion

o Unconditional in that we do nothing to deserve it not based on works or faith – a denial

- Eph 1: 3-11

o Election is eternal – God is a God who chose us in Him before the foundation of the world vs. 4

o Election is personal – God chose individuals not categories or conditions vs. 4, 5, 11

o Election is grounded in God’s will – in His will to love us & fulfill his purpose for us vs. 4-7

§ In this passage, our will and what we do with it is never addressed in relation to our election

§ Election is unto holiness not because of holiness

- Romans 9

o Paul address matters of spiritual salvation

§ Uses historical examples to make spiritual points

§ Building a case for a consistent way of God for working throughout

o God’s own purpose and will are the reason for all His decisions

o Paul denies that God’s saving purposes are conditioned on how we use our will vs 16

Objections to Unconditional Election

The Bible teaches that election is on the basis of our foreseen faith–Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2. According to the foreknowledge of God the Father. This interpretation is neither necessary nor plausible.

Jesus, in the sermon on the mount, says he never had a saving relationship with those he cast into damnation.

Foreknowledge is fore-love. He loves us before he even forms us–Deuteronomy 10

If God has unconditional election then that means that we do not choose God.  No.  Men and women must choose Christ.  Calvinist must not subscribe to a false dichotomy of divine choice and human choice.  The Gospel is complete with the Disciples choosing to follow Jesus.

Other Objections

Calvinism turns God into an Oger.  Calvinistic Archery.  The Critic fires arrows into false target.

If election is unconditional, it must be arbitrary.  Not necessarily.  We are inferring from our own ignorance saying that we know what God desires are for everyone.

God is the blame for people being in hell

Offer of salvation is incensere

Effectual calling amounts to cohersion.

Conclusion

Non-Calvinist reflect upon the Scripture.

Fellow Calvinists.  Distinction between a doctrine being part of the Gospel and a doctrine being the essence of the Gospel.  Spurgeons quote–Calvinism is the Gospel–can convey something unhealthy.  Do not say Arminianism denies the essence of the Gospel, but say that Calvinism brings out the grace of the Gospel.

Building Bridges–Dr. Ken Keathley

Filed under: Calvinism, Dr. Ken Keathley — Tim Rogers @ 4;52 pm

I have missed Dr. Keathley. As I began, I had to leave the room. Here is the beginning. I have found out that they are doing podcast for this at lifeways website.

Sovereingty and permission as they relate to predestination.

Similarities of infralapsarian Calvinism and Molinism

Molinism–affirming divine sovereignty with genuine permission.

Olson–an Arminian rejects Molinism because it is to Calvinistic.

Supralapsarianism–the concept of permission rejected. Calvin held to double reprobation. The key to supralapsarianism is reprobation and damnation. God does not reject the reprobate because he is a sinner, but the sinner becomes a reprobate because he rejected God. Grace plays no part in the supralapsarian decree–Bruce Ware.

Most Reformed people follow the infralapsarian view.

There is a sweet lady, named Janet, sitting beside me taking meticulous notes in a word document.  She just gave me the entire outline up to Dr. Welty.  Below is the entie outline of Dr. Keathley.

+ Ken Keathley – A Molinist View of Election

-         Two essential doctrines: sovereignty and permission (given to angels and humans) our freedom is a derived freedom

-         Permission -

-         Islam – Divine sovereignty taken to the extreme

-         Process theology – permission taken to the extreme

-         Biblical truth – God sovereignty rules over people who he allows a permission

-         The similarities of infralapsarian Calvinism and Molinism

-         Question of the reprobate – God’s decision based on our rejection or His choice

-         Superlapsarians – double predestination prior to creation

-         Infralapsarians God first allowed to permit the fall, then decided to choose some to be saved

-         Molinism – high view of sovereignty with a robust understanding of permission

-         Molin – 16th century Jesuit priest

-         Calvin’s Supralapsarianism: The Concept of permission rejected

o       Reprobation – God’s rejection of an individual

§         The reprobate becomes a sinner because he rejects God

o       Damnation – God’s punishment of the individual who is reprobate

o       Election & reprobation have equal

o       Grace plays no part in the initial double decree

§         Grace does not enter the picture until God decides save the elect from the fall

-         Infralapsarianism: the attempt to blend Calvinism & permission

o       Dort – says that any attempt to lay sin at God’s feet is blasphemy

o       Refuses double predestination

o       Some aspects of God’s will with regard to evil etc. are permissive

o       Election is unconditional but reprobation is conditional

-         Problems with the Infralapsarianism position

o       It is very difficult to reconcile permission with the traditional Reformed view of sovereignty

o       The infralapsarian system is rationally inconsistent

o       The concept of permission doesn’t solve anything is reprobation is still the result of “God’s good pleasure”

-         Conclusions among Calvinists concerning infralapsarianism

o       Many supra-Calvinists dismiss the infra as incipient Arminianism

o       Some Calvinist despair of enterprise completely

o       Many Calvinists appeal to mystery

o       But there is difference between mystery and contradiction

-          Molinism: affirming both sovereignty & permission

o       2 affirmation of Molinism: Meticulous sovereignty and libertarian free will

o       God controls all things primarily by his omniscience but is not the determinative of all things

o       3 moments in Molinism

§         Counterfactual: a statement contrary to fact which still yet has truth content

§         Possible worlds: complex scenarios made up of counterfactuals

§         Natural knowledge – God knows everything that can happen, free knowledge – God sovereignly chooses what will happen to make His will , middle knowledge – God sees all the scenarios that can happen as the result of man’s free will

-         Advantages of the Molinist Approach

o       Molinism affirms the genuine desire on the part of God for al to be saved in a way that is problematic for Calvinism

o       Provides a better model for understanding how it is simultaneously true that God’s decree if election is unconditional while his rejection of the unbeliever is conditional

§         Why is the reprobate reprobate? – because God wills it (i.e. wills the world where this can occur), although it is because of the reprobate’s choice

o       In the Molinist system, unlike Arminianism, God is the author of salvation who actively elects certain one

o       Molinism has a more robust and scriptural understanding of the role God’s foreknowledge plays in election that does either Calvinism or Arminianism

o       Molinism provides a better model for understanding the biblical divine sovereignty and human responsibility

o       Molinism places mystery where it should be located, i.e. in God’s infinite attributes rather than His character

o       Molinism has a valid concept of permission that does not have to resort to special pleading

-         Molinism is a defense not a theodicy (an attempt to explain why God created the world as He did)

-         Molinism presents a forceful affirmation of both sovereignty and permission  

Building Bridges–Dr. Nathan Finn

Filed under: Calvinism, Dr. Nathan Finn — Tim Rogers @ 3;48 pm

Southern Baptist on both sides of the Southern Baptist isle are guilty of spreading false information.  Calvinism is coming more popular among younger Southern Baptist

Common false stereotypes of Southern Baptist Calvinists

Five Myths about SB

Assumptions to guide presentation:

All SB believe the Gospel

Most mis-characterizations are based on misunderstandings or confusion

Most interested SB desire to understand Calvinism.

The best way to move the SBC forward is to accurately represent each other’s belief’s.

  • Calvinism is a threat to Evangelism

1845 the first thing that the SBC did was form two Mission Boards. The leaders at that time were Calvinists.  SB eschew any thology or practice that hinders evangelism  1993 SB papers began calling Calvinism the threat for evangelism.

1997 Western Recorder concedes that Calvinist are evangelistic.  Estep warns SB to avoid Calvinism because it will hinder our evangelism and missions.

Dr. Finn is giving numerous examples of leaders in the convention within the past years giving statements condemning Calvinism and evangelism.

SB Calvinist have consistently gone on record that evangelism is their heart.

Dr. Lemke’s methodology is skewed for two reasons.

  • Southern Baptist Calvinist are opposed to Invitation.

Invitation is an altar call.  Many non-calvinist point to this as proof that

reasons Some calvinist are uncomfortable with public invitations.

  1. public invitation evolves into practical
  2. invitation system is nothing more than pragmatism
  3. there is no such thing as a Calvinist public invitations
  4. calvinist are concerned about the method.
  • Calvinism is equivelant to Hyper-Calvinist
  1. Hyper Calvinist
  2. restrict the invitation to the elect
  3. deny the universal love of God to all people

Calvinist rejected hyper-calvinism in 1845.  Convention Calvinist reject Hyper Calvinist.

  • Calvinist deny human free will.

admitedly there are a number different ways to define free will.

  1. God saves people despite of their free will
  2. God does not save people who truly want to be saved because they are not of the elect.

No man is saved against his will.  Nor is the will taken away.  The work of the spirit of god is to work on and change the will and make individuals willing.  Effectual calling is the regeneration of the sinner, thus making the will willing.

  • Authentic Baptist are not Calvinist.

Estep argues that Baptist came from English Baptist.

William Bradley note that early 19th Century Baptist were Calvinist.

Founders ministries publicly sthat that they defend Baptist Principles.  By this they mean Calvinist Soteriology and Baptist Ecclesiology.

To build bridges Southern Baptist must make these commitments.

  1. Common commitment to being Gospel centered.
  2. We must commit to traditional Baptist Principles. Dr. Finn just commended Dr. Bart Barber in his commitment to the 5th Century Initiative.
  3. We must share a mutual commitment to labor together to fulfill the Great Commission.
  4. Share a mutual commitment to be humble, irenic, and loving.  By avoiding fighting with each other over these issues.  Remain free to hold each other’s convictions.

Building Bridges–Dr. Chuch Lawless

Filed under: Calvinism — Tim Rogers @ 3;00 pm

Southern Baptist who are not Calvinist

Acts 9

Defining non-Calvinist is difficult. Steve Lemke says that most Baptist are between 2 and 4 points. Dr. Lawless has stated that he signed the Abstracts but does not believe in all 5 points.

Concerns raised are usually extremes that provide for preaching fodder.

I speak with a single voice but I believe there are others out there.

four sterotypes of non calvinists

    • Non-Calvinists are more concerned with numbers than theology.

      Most debate against Non-Calvinists come against Mega-Church pastors. We seldom ask the question if the growth of mega churches come from transfer than from baptisms. This is not true with most pastors. Calvinists and Non-Calvinists affirmed Dr. Vines with his message a Baptist and his Bible.

      We are concerned about theology but we are also concerned about numbers.  We must ask; Is God using us to make disciples?  The numbers, when properly understood and used, is one way of evaluating our ministry.  It is a numerical that forces us to evaluate.  Charles Spurgeon: “it is a good thing for people to see the nakedness of the land through decress.  I should be very sorry if the adding up should be abandoned.

        • Non-Calvinists promote pragmatic church growth

        It is safe that the men who began the church growth movement are not Calvinists.  Peter Waggoner says that as for methods we are extremely pragmatic.  Pragmatism is rampant in the SBC.  “At this point whatever works is all the theology needed.”  Not everyone that aligns against 5 point Calvinism are pragmatics.

        1. Asking the question; “is it working”? is not that always wrong.
        2. Church growth numbers is one way of evaluating it is working.  We can do this without shutting down the preaching of the gospel.  Do not be afraid to ask numerical questions.
        3. The “is it working” questions forces us to ask missiological questions.  We long for Biblical church growth but never at the expense of
          • Non-Calvinists use Fraudian approaches.

          Mark Devers has saidti the responsibility for every Christian to evangelize.

          four things that Non-Calvinist ask of our Calvinist Brothers.

          1. do not think that we have faulty evangelism because we present the gospel using a track.
          2. do not think that we have
          3. understand that many of us still utilize a public invitation.  we are well aware of the difficulties in the invitation system.  Is it not responsible to offer a public response while teaching that physical response is not what saves one?
          4. Do not think that we are in error just because you hear us say that the decision is left to the sinner.
          5. do not be afraid when I ask someone if I can lead them in a sinners prayer.
          • Non-Calvinists do not like Calvinists.

          We love each other and need to remember that others are looking.

            Building Bridges–Dr. David Nelson

            Filed under: Calvinism, Dr. David Nelson — Tim Rogers @ 12;30 pm

            This is the truth of the Gospel.  God sent Jesus Christ

            • Design of Atonement

                    The scriptures and the Missio Dei

            Creation—Fall—Redemption—New Creation

                    The atoning work of Christ

            subverts

            Reconciles

            Restores

            Why did Christ Die?  Why did God become Man?

            The father sent his son because god wills to punish sin and the save all who are in union with the father through the spirit.

            Affirm the righteousness of God to punish sin.  In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself. For whom did Christ die—the world

            • The nature of the Atonement

            a.       Penal substitution—some have restated the gospel

            b.      Four motifs

                                                               i.      Exemplar

                                                             ii.      Govenor

                                                            iii.      Exchange

                                                           iv.      Victor

            • Extent of the Atonement

            a.       Historical Considerations

                                                               i.      Limited and unlimited Atonement

                                                             ii.      Hincmar &Gottsochak (9th Century)

            Council of Mimes counted Hincmar’s double predestination as heretical and had him placed in prison until he died.

                                                            iii.      Saumur Theologians (16th-17th Century)

            1.      John Cameron

            2.      Moise Amyraut

                                                           iv.      Andrew Fuller (1754-1815)  Our convention would gain much by returning to the reading of his readings.  Fuller is behind the modern missionary movment.

            b.      Exegetical Considerations

                                                               i.      John 3:16-18

            Affirm general atonement but also affirm the view of limited atonement.  All theological views have tensions.

                                                             ii.      1 Timothy 2:1-6

            Paul instructs Timothy on how the church is to behave.  We are to pray for all people.  It is god’s desire that all come to know him.

                                                            iii.      Hebrews 2:9;14-18

            Jesus suffered and tasted death for everyone.  The author of Hebrews carries an analogy throughout the book between the High Priest

                                                           iv.      2 Peter 2:1;3;9

                                                             v.      1 John 2:2

            • What is at Stake

            Two potential problems

            a.       A potential problem regarding the nature of the gospel

                                                               i.      Are we losing the gospel?

            b.      A potential problem regarding the offer of the gospel

                                                               i.      No offer of the gospel.

                                                             ii.      A cheap offer of the gospel

            Some of the most evangelistic people are 5 point Calvinist. 

            Dr. Nelson said; the biggest fear is that the people in the pew are getting their doctrines from charlatans such as Joel Olsteen and John Hagee.

            Building Bridges–Dr. Jeff Noblitt

            Filed under: Calvinism, Dr. Jeff Noblitt — Tim Rogers @ 12;24 pm

            The Rise of Calvinism in the Church

            The rise of Calvinism in the church is good for the following reasons. 

            • The Sufficiency of Scripture

            We won the battle for inerrancy but lost the sufficiency of Scripture.  The inerrancy of the scripture changed the denomination’s mind but it did not change the denomination’s heart.

             Dr. Yarnell would be considered a raging Calvinist by the average SB in the pew of the Church.  The substance of the allegiance of the sufficiency of Scripture is needed by the average SB in the SB pew.

            The average SB may accept sufficiency of Scripture but practically they reject it.  The difference between using the scripture to support pragmatism and teaching the full council of God?  It is the difference between Rick Warren and John McAuthur.

            We find people a little older than the youth and we call them youth directors.  So we have children leading children.

            The work of prayer is not salvation.  It can become an idol wrapped in Baptist clothes. 

            • Produce Better Church Splits :>)

            Matthew 10:34

            The blazing light of truth is different from the darkness.

            Jesus died and split the veil and then split death and hell. 

            Most church splits are over power hungry flesh felt needs. 

            Good Split— A split over Truth..  Those who hold to the doctrines of Grace, should have some.  Many of our professing churches cannot handle the truth. 

            Titus 1:9—A split over sound doctrine is a healthy split.  Dr. Mohler said; “we are reaping the harvest of  not teaching sound doctrine.

            It is healthy for humble compassionate men to stand on truth even if it divides the church.

            • Expose and remove the covert liberalism that has crept in among us.

            There seems to be a blatant dishonesty.  Any denomination that holds to inerrancy but not sufficiency of Scripture will find itself back in the cesspool of liberalism.

            If you are not practicing your conservative theology in your church then you are not conservative. 

            Colvert Liberalism—the outside may look conservative, but the inside is Oprah Winfrey. The emerging church and Joel Olsteen church is dumbing down the Gospel and making the people two-fold the children of hell.

            Emerging church flaunts itself as the new way to do church but is in reality liberalism wrapped in a cloak of conservativeness.

            • Troubling results of the past years.

            Dr. Paige Patterson said 40% he estimates are lost who attend on Sunday.

            Barna says as many Baptist get divorced as non-churched.

            • Counseling Converts,

            JM Pendleton’s manual on the church.  Use the portion of repentance to counsel the new converts.

            We have dumbed-down evangelism, dumbed-down revival, dumbded-down worship services in order to keep the dumbed-down Christians.

             

            For the church to be what God wants it to be there must be revival and reformation and in that order.

            Building Bridges Conference–Dr. Malcom Yarnell

            Filed under: Calvinism, Dr. Malcom Yarnell — Tim Rogers @ 12;16 pm

            Dr. Malcom Yarnell

             

            How Texans Build Biblical Bridges

             

            The first Church started in Texas was began by Daniel Parker a two seed theologian.

             

            The association reorganized with REB Baylor leading the way.

             

            Defining Calvinism

            Lack of clarity. Three fold paradigm

             

            Classical Calvinism

            Numerous attempts to codify Calvinism. After the Synod Dort Calvinism split into Arminius and Calvinism.

            Classical Calvinism has a positive and negative view of election.

            Servetus was murdered by Calvin and his followers.

             

            Baptist Calvinism

            Particular Baptist are 2-3 decades behind the General Baptist. English Baptist rejected predestination as reprehensible.

            These Baptist explicitly rejected the theological method and moved away from the Calvinist context. Not all modern Baptist agree on what part of Calvin should be retained and which should be rejected.

            Appreciation and distrust of Calvinism. Calvinist take the Biblical text seriously as well as Baptist, but Baptist more so.

             

            Hyper Calvinism

            Causes for Rejoicing and Concern of Calvinism

             

            • Jesus Christ

            If there is on thing that characterizes Baptist believe at the folk level, and our best theologians, it is the centrality of faith in the Savior and submission to Him as Lord. There is a standing temptation for Baptit enamored with Reformed Theology to transition from concentrating on faith in Christ toward rationalistic doctrines of predestination.

            • The Bible

            Both Baptist and Calvinists have a high appreciation for the Bible. Non-calvinist Baptist rejoice in the stands that our Calvinist Brothers on the inerrancy of the Scripture. Calvinism is not so interested in the Bible as much as it is in a system that the Bible is stretched to

            • The Gospel

            Spurgeon proclaimed the Gospel regularly. The cause of concern is the Classical Calvinism of the new birth. The distinction of “common grace in the common call” and “special grace in the effectual call.” This is not found in Scripture.

            • The Churches

            The renewed focus on ecclesiology. There is no room for the lost of congregationalism. History of Baptist Churches comes through Calvinist Historians. It seems that the only historical Baptist Churches are Calvinist.

            • The Christian Life

            The emphasis on preaching the Gospel clearly. Protest against the altar call is something for concern. Personal integrity is something that is to be celebrated.

             

            Conclusion

            BH Carroll was a Calvinist in line with the moderate tone of the New Hampshire Confession. The Tesas tradition indicates that Classical Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism should feel distinctly unwelcome, for it expects personal faith and repentance from preaching.

            We non-Calvinist Baptist call on our Calvinsit Baptist Brothers to identify and call forth and reject the errors of Classical Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism.

            Building Bridges Conference–Dr. James Merritt

            Filed under: Calvinism, Dr. James Merritt — Tim Rogers @ 12;14 pm

            God’s Treasure Chest

            The Riches of Christ

            How to find out how rich you are: “Add up everything that death cannot take away from you and money cannot buy.” Dr. Adrian Rogers

            Ephesians 1:3-7

            • The Emerald of Election 1:3-4

            Election was not meant to bring fear but to bolster faith.

            Priority of Election–Before the foundation of the world. God chose me first when I had no choice. John 15:16. Charles Spurgeon–I am glad that God chose me before I came into this world because if he would have waited until after I came into the world he would have never chosen me. Any man, any time, at any place, can choose to be saved.

            Purpose of Election–I am chosen to be holy. We have begun to make fun of holiness. Holiness is not what we do for God, holiness is what God does in us. Getting isolated from the world is not being isolated from the world; holiness is being insulated from the world. Holiness is to be set apart. I was not chosen to be different; I am different because I am chosen.

            • The Pearl of Predestination v.5

            Predestination does not mean that God has programed everthing in you life and there is nothing you can do about it. It does not mean that some are predestined to heaven and some are predestined to hell. Predestination refers to God’s Children.

            Predestined to Adoption–I have such an intimate close relationship with God, I call him not only Father, but Dad. We not only that but we are joint heirs with Jesus Christ.

            Predestined to the Praise of God’s Glory for all Eternity v. 11-12

            Predestined to be conformed to the Image of his Son Romans 8:29

            Predestination is not a poison but a pearl.

            • Ruby of Redemption v. 7

            We were redeemed before we were adopted. Fanny Crosby “Redeemed How I love to proclaim it.” Charles Spurgeon said: Morality can keep a person out of jail, but it takes the blood of Jesus to keep a man out of Hell.”

            Forgiveness of our Sins–

            • The Gold of Grace V. 7

            The chest is gold and the key to the chest is faith. Once that key unlocks the chest then there is the emerald, pearl, and ruby are there.

            Dr. Merritt just admitted he is only a 3 point Calvinist. “We are all in the same boat, we may be wrong but never in doubt.” He tells a story about a young man he met on the plane whose name is Chris. Dr. Merritt said he did not stop to explain the 5-points he merely shared an old story. He then told us that we could fight over this stuff all we wanted but there are too many Chris’ in the world.

            Great Message!

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