“How Could it Be?” Part II
In Part I, you will notice that I referenced a story which moved me to tears as I thought of the heartache and grueling decisions that had to be made to right a wrong. It seems that anytime something needs to be righted it does take heartache and tough decisions. Well, as I re-visit a situation that is current in SBC life I find myself asking the same question that is the title of this post–How Could it Be?
It all began for me in November 2005. I read of accounts of a trustee with the IMB stepping forward and making public items that were discussed in private. It seems that the news was not concerned about a trustee publicly releasing items discussed in private as they were about the issue of “dissent”. This dissent, was something that we Baptist hold dear and here was a trustee that was being squashed, according to the various press coverage, by the system that wanted to keep people under their thumb. The first thing I asked myself had to do with the direction the President, Dr. Jerry Rankin, wanted to go in the matter. The reason I wanted to find Dr. Rankin’s position had to do with the items the trustee was classifying as the “narrowing of parameters”. One doctrine was the doctrine of a Private Prayer Language (PPL). You see, this was something that was revealed to the SBC world about Dr. Jerry Rankin at the time he was announced as the choice of the FMB (Foreign Mission Board is what the International Mission Board was once called.). However, and the way that Dr. Rankin’s election to the post was satisfied, it was agreed that this would never be an issue for Dr. Rankin because he always had this in the privacy of his own devotional life. He never taught this doctrine, and because he only used it privately, it would never be an issue in terms of his employment.
After a period of time there were news reports about a public blog where this trustee opined wildly about the Conservative Resurgence and used some very harsh language concerning Crusading Conservatives. To his credit the trustee went back and changed some of the language as to not make it so harsh. However, this post was a gauntlet being thrown down for the rest of the Board of Trustees and across the convention.
From the IMB decision arose a group of concerned Southern Baptist that this person was being falsely accused and should be protected. This group came together in Memphis and placed in writing the Memphis Declaration. This is where the subtle change in the message was placed in writing to rally the masses. In this story we see the beginnings of information management as the media is manipulated for the cause. The change, you will notice in the story, has moved from the right of public dissent to the narrowing of parameters.
Thus, it seems that we have this tragic accident that has happened–for the first time in the history of the SBC a trustee has been recommended to be removed–some say for reasons of revealing private information and others say it is because of the trustee’s desire to dissent. However, we now see the rallying cry of this group and that is the “narrowing of parameters”. People flocked to the defense of this trustee for various reasons, but I will narrow (no pun intended) it to two. One, has to do with Doctrine. There were some, and I believe the majority of those that jumped on this ambulance, that saw the IMB policies as going outside the BF&M. These policies were implemented, we were told, by a small group of people that were Landmark in their doctrine and wanted to narrow the parameters to meet some Landmark doctrinal position. This position, we were told, was being implemented in order to accomplish two things. First it would keep the SBC under the control of a few people, mainly one sitting as President of another entity in Texas. Second, it would get rid of Dr. Rankin at the IMB something, we were told, was a desire of a small few in leadership on the IMB BoT.
We go into the 2006 convention in Greensboro with the rallying cry of cooperation and CP giving is huge. The presidential candidate is Dr. Ronnie Floyd, and his commitment to the SBC is called into question because of the less than 1% CP giving ratio of the church he pastors. While Dr. Floyd certainly could have done much better in his CP giving ratio we must remember that his SBC commitment is seen in his giving directly to the various entities. Could it be that Dr. Floyd’s CP giving isn’t as much of a picture of his commitment to the SBC as it is his disagreement with Arkansas Baptist giving plan? However, Dr. Floyd was painted as some out of touch Mega-church pastor that could care less about anyone else. Also, when Dr. Paige Patterson and Dr. Al Mohler endorsed Dr. Floyd the die had been cast. It now was argued that the narrowing of parameters was in full force. Since the IMB has brought about PPL and Baptism as an issue, the Calvinist are next to be voted out. That was the banner cry heading into the 2006 convention.
Dr. Frank Page is the nominee that Burleson shopped around to find. With the seemingly endorsement of Dr. Morris Chapman, this group met in their hotel suite with their new President and laid hands on and anointed their new leaders that would help them implement the changes they so desperately wanted. However, there was emerging within the leaders of this group a curious doctrinal deficiency that Southern Baptist held tenaciously onto in the past that those who signed on were about to notice. One was alcohol, and the other was ecclesiology.
At the 2006 convention Ben Cole, a leader at the Memphis convocation, along with Tom Ascol, President of the Calvinist organization Founders Ministry, argued in support of a resolution on alcohol. This argument elicited some excitable statements by veteran SBC observers. I remember sitting in the SEBTS alumni luncheon on that Wednesday and hearing Dr. Danny Akin express his distress at sitting in a SBC convention meeting and hearing SBC pastors argue for the use of alcohol as a social beverage. The icing on the cake for this convention was the blog post by the trustee that was supposed to be tragically attacked in this narrowing of parameters scene, where he purportedly used wine as a device to lead someone to Christ. People who thought they were signing onto a movement with other Biblical inerrantist were beginning to question exactly who exactly this was.
Ecclesiology became another area that was beginning to come to the forefront. It seems that it began with the idea that the seating of the universal church was in the present. It has now moved to the offices of the local church and how there is no prohibition in gender for the Senior Pastor. It seems that the argument of the local church has moved forward in the same principles of the alcohol argument. The alcohol argument was basically, you cannot find in the Bible ‘Thou shalt not drink’. The argument for the local church has moved from, you cannot find in the Bible, ‘the local church is my church’ and since that is not there, you certainly cannot find that the Senior Pastor is not an office in the Scripture. Thus, if the Senior Pastor is not referenced in Scripture, there can be no prohibitions on the office because the Bible doesn’t even mention the office.
Identity Revealed
This brings me to the conclusion of this post. It seems that many who were commenting in the beginning trying to defend this trustee now are no longer defending. Why is that? Well as in Part I of this series, the Van Ryn family realized this young lady they had nurtured back to health for five weeks was not part of their immediate family, it seems that statements and positions by this former trustee indicate this is not part of the immediate family–doctrinally. The real problem in question has to do with things being said. In a comment stream here (second comment to a John), he says that he voted against the BF&M 2000. But, in a post here (in the opening paragraph), he says that he voted for the BF&M 2000. Regardless of that inconsistency, that gives the appearance that the former trustee will say whatever he needs to say in order to favor his audience, there is now a promotion of women pastors. Many who once said, I am for you and will follow, are now having to reassess their positions.
As the Van Ryn’s some are now saying, you must believe I am an idiot because I cannot identify someone that is an inerrantist. The Cerak family responded with love and compassion toward their family because they knew what they were feeling as they realized that the daughter they thought was theirs was alive, but was in reality dead. Both families came away from this tragedy stronger in their faith and much more in love with our Lord. But they acknowledged that one they thought was their family, in reality was not.
It is the same with some that responded to what you perceived was a tragedy, but you now realize that the injured was not part of the doctrinal family you have known as the SBC. Allow me to commend you on nurturing our Brother and being there for him. However, it is okay for you to now acknowledge what he has acknowledged–he does not embrace the BF&M 2000. Some may still be hanging on because you are still hung onto the question; “How could it be?”. That is okay, also. Back away and re-look at the posts that you see coming from this blog and you will observe the doctrinal slide toward the left. Then venture to this blog and view the post by this author and you will observe the vitriol and vengeance toward an entity president that has been duly elected by the BoT who are authorized to be in their positions by the convention.
As you review and wonder about the outcome. Let me encourage you to go ahead and release these Brothers that are doctrinally members of another family. We do not desire to see harm come to them, but we must release them to their doctrinal family where they will be better nurtured and cared for simply because they are not doctrinally a part of our family.
Tim,
Excellent illustration and post(s). I have to concede that Enid has quickly gone much further to the left than even I thought possible. The CBF crowd is clearly Enid’s most loyal followers today. Those in the SBC that followed him in battle, only to have the rug of sound doctrine pulled out from underneath them, must be wondering what in the world has happened.
Wade has now been directly caught telling a mis-truth. Either he did or did not vote for the BFM2K - one of his statements is false . This is troubling because he has made a practice of making insinuations and outright accusations against others regarding lying on several occasions. Though he does not give such grace to others, normally, I might grant that maybe he remembered incorrectly, or mistyped - but the context of what he wrote, clearly shows that it was not a typo in either case. Therefore, one of his statements is completely and utterly false. You know what they say about those who live in glass houses…
Ron P.
Comment by Ron P. — April 1, 2008 @ 12;29 pm
Tim
I find it strange that the man who is accusing people of lying has been caught in making two different statements:
Blogger Wade Burleson said…
John,
I have chosen to remain Southern Baptist - and that is why I accept the confessional prohibitions even though I voted against the proposal 8 years ago. A convention ends up dying when you narrow things so tightly that people end up leaving. I’m not there yet.
Your question reveals that you must not be a Southern Baptist. That, of course, is fine, since there are many wonderful other evangelical denominations, but as I said, I have chosen to be Southern Baptist. I am arguing for change - but for that to come it must be from within. Sun Mar 30, 06:46:00 PM 2008
April 1, 2008
Nevertheless, when it came time to vote for the 2000 BFM I voted for its adoption, believing that the prohibition statement was really not that big of a deal.
These apparent contradictions wonder whether Wade voted for the BF&M in 2000 or not.
Comment by Robin Foster — April 1, 2008 @ 2;38 pm
Tim and Robin,
Just thought of this possibility: Maybe he voted for it before he voted against it.
Ron P.
Comment by Ron P. — April 1, 2008 @ 3;05 pm
Tim,
my brother from a different mother - the CBF crowd left a long time ago, the only one that really comes around often is the Big Daddy. To check out the CBF crowd you need to go to Baptist Life.com - of course I do see you there from time to time. As you know, for the most part the CBF crowd is not all that fond of Wade due to his stance on innerrancy.
Ron, you must be the second most obesessed person, behind only P lumpkins, with our good friend and brother Wade Burleson. It would be quite humorous to count the number of refrences that you have made to him or “Enid”
Jim champion
Comment by Jim Champion — April 1, 2008 @ 10;54 pm
Tim,
Why the continued interest in a disgraced former trustee of the IMB? Is he still perceived as a threat? It seems to me that the best course of action for those who don’t like or agree with Wade is to ignore him.
Les
Comment by Les Puryear — April 1, 2008 @ 11;03 pm
Jim,
Thank you. To compared to Dr. Peter Lumpkins is quite a compliment! One could only wish to be as great a writer and scholar as he is.
But, to quote CB, since you called the dance…
Over the past couple of years, Enid (both Burleson and Cole) have made (and continue to make) quite a reputation by attacking Trustees, entity heads, entity employees, lawyers, wives, homemakers, students, dogs, and basically anyone who does not hold with their political agenda and personal vendettas. He has dubiously called the SBC racist and dangerously close to being a cult. It was specifically because of the vitriolic and acrimonious attacks on people and the assault on our Baptist distinctives, that I decided to jump into the debate in the Baptist blogsphere. I find it interesting that if one dares disagree with Enid, or points out their inconsistencies, and in this case, mis-truth (just like we recently witnessed in the intentional misrepresentation of Judge McBryer’s ruling), an almost immediate antagonist condemnation is launched by Enid and/or their adherents. Where is your indignation for the petulant attacks that they have launched against so many? Your condemnation rings hollow. Where is your condemnation of the false statement by Wade?
Les asks a good question about “why the continued interest in a disgraced former trustee of the IMB? Is he still perceived as a threat?” I will let Wade answer that from his own blog via a quick google search of the last two months. I just grabbed the first two quotes I found to illustrate:
“I am by no means giving up on the SBC. I will continue to seek to bring about change…” February 22, 2008
“…but as I said, I have chosen to be Southern Baptist. I am arguing for change - but for that to come it must be from within.” March 30, 2008
I believe he has been consistent in saying that he will not lead his church to leave the SBC and that he will continue the fight for the changes he has championed. Since he is going to continue the battle, we must continue to be vigilant in defense of the inerrancy and sufficiency of the Word of God and our historic, Biblical, Baptist distinctives.
Since it is he that has chosen to frame the debate with such a disparaging and captious tone, (admittedly far less than Cole though) he has invited close scrutinization of every word he writes. Hence, my comment about those who live in glass houses. It has indeed come back to bite him.
Blessings,
Ron P.
Comment by Ron P. — April 2, 2008 @ 1;26 am
Ron
Glad you liked the comparison.
We all have our little obsessions - mine happens to be Raquetball, yours all things Wade Burleson (wonder if he has fan club t shirts?)
We abviously disagree - I like that Wade raises difficult issues. I think the SBC needs to deal with some of the issues he raises - race, we are far from being anywhere we need to be. How many minority faces do we see in excutive postions in Nashville, or leadership postions across the country. Women in ministry - seems to be some evidence that the SBC is moving past pastor to seminary proff to … Are we going to remove the women from youth ministry programs, we have rid them from the theology school but SWBTS has several in the EM school. Last I heard many EM graduates go directly into the pastorate, is it time to purge the ladies in the EM school as well?
Enid makes you uncomforatble - good. They make me uncomfortable as well. They are conservatives, they are SBC (not CBF for even BGCT or whatever moderate convention Oklahoma may or may not have)
ONe thing you have to say for Wade - he will let you come to his site and rant all you want. He will proabably even reply to you. (I appreciate all sites that let opposing views give thier side - Tim and Peter included)
Jim
Comment by Jim Champion — April 2, 2008 @ 7;49 am
Is it possible that a biblical inerrantist could conclude that alcohol abstention is not taught in scripture?
Comment by Bill — April 2, 2008 @ 11;12 am
Tim,
My apologies for the length of my posts.
Jim,
Glad you enjoy such a fun sport. Wish I was better at it. Since you missed my last serve, let me hit the ball again to you…
My obsession is not with Wade but with the assault upon our Biblically based Baptist Distinctives. Enid just happens to be the “flavor of the month” as Wade and Ben are the leaders and organizers of the current SBC reform movement. As long as they continue to be the face of of the ecumenical movement within the SBC, their views and methods become valid issues for anyone to address. If the movement to take the SBC to a more ecumenical convention were led by someone else, you would accuse me of being obsessed with that person instead. If you want to talk of obsession, you really should direct your ire towards Enid. To hear them tell it, you would think that Paige Patterson is the devil incarnate. I am waiting for a post with a Youtube video showing that PP was on the grassy knoll in Dallas and can now be identified as the second shooter in the Kennedy assassination. After all, he has all those guns.
Sarcasm aside, maybe your rebuke of “my obsession” would be given more consideration, if you would direct a commensurate amount of verbiage towards Enid and their obsession with all things Paige Patterson. Their obsession is far more prolific and pronounced than mine.
Since it has been thoroughly debated elsewhere (SBC Today comes to mind), I will simply disagree with the broad stroke of racism that has been leveled against the SBC. Is there local autonomous churches, or individuals in churches or individuals working in the SBC who are racist? Unfortunately that answer is still yes. However, is the SBC as a convention racist? I would say no. We as a convention have clearly spoken regarding the sin of racism Are we fully where we need to be on this, not at all. But neither are we there yet on a lot of issues. But we are working to get there.
Despite the blather from Enid that we are going back to the dark ages regarding the role of women, I can state most assuredly that those of us who practice and believe that complimentarianism to be Biblical, hold a very high view of women. We unashamedly, will not compromise God’s Word on the roles of men and women and that only men can serve as pastor (elder, bishop) and deacon. As to professors of theology, it has been the practice and belief in our seminaries, that those teaching men to be pastors, should be qualified to be a pastor. Yet SWBTS since it’s founding has had, and with confidence I can say, will continue to have women as a vital role as part of it’s institution.
Wade has clearly abandoned conservative Biblical theology, when he advocates women serving as pastor. Despite your protestation, the CBF crowd is one of Wade’s and Ben’s most vocal cheerleaders. This seems obvious because of their shared disdain for Paige Patterson and the CBF’s scorn for the SBC. Rest assured that I am not uncomfortable in the positions that Enid holds. Southern Baptists have rejected such ecumenical and liberal movements before. I am however, uncomfortable in the manner in which they have waged this battle. It has become apparent, that many who share some of their views on the issues, are also uncomfortable in their behavior. For the past couple of years, personal attacks, gossip, mis-truth, embellishment, and duplicity seem to characterize the reform movement led by Enid. Who wants to be known or associated with that? Which I think brings us full circle and back to the point of Tim’s post.
Thanks for the conversation Jim!
Blessings,
Ron P.
Comment by Ron P. — April 2, 2008 @ 1;06 pm
Bill,
I’ll throw my two cents in. My short answer is yes, though I think Paul’s admonition that though all things are lawful, they are not profitable. When lost people think it is a sin for Christians to drink, I think that speaks volumes. I do think sound exegetical arguments can be made for abstention too. Paul also said, that whether we eat or drink or in whatever we do, do it for the Glory of God. I find it difficult to fathom social drinking done for God’s Glory. It almost certainly is done for man’s glory.
Peter Lumpkins has written several excellent posts on that subject matter:
http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2008/02/a-prologue-to-w.html
http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2008/02/wisdom-drinking.html
http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2008/02/wisdom-drinki-1.html
http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2008/02/wisdom-drinki-2.html
http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2008/02/wisdom-drinki-3.html
Blessings,
Ron P.
Comment by Ron P. — April 2, 2008 @ 10;58 pm
So what of Lottie Moon? Was she sinning because she taught both men and women in China?
Gentleman: The challenge is simple and it is this. Taking the Bible as a whole, why the women in Christ’s ministry? Paul’s ministry? There are women in ministry in the OT. Scripture must interpret scripture with no contradictions. Popping a verse here and there, leaving out the rest of what the Bible says on the subject is a concern to me.
Would any of you want to be a woman in the church? One’s hands would be pretty tied in doing work that she felt God was calling her to do. There is not an area where a man is told no you can’t. But for a woman, the no’s are endless. It’s quite frustrating.
When did a seminary become a church? Also, can it be denied concerning Paige Patterson’s sworn deposition as reprinted by SBCOutpost? These are my questions.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 3, 2008 @ 1;14 am
These things should have been out in the open. What concerning Paige Patterson has not proved to be true? What of any issue has not proved to be true? Jerry Rankin spoke against the new policies in several Baptist news articles. Could it be that nervousness is setting in on things that used to be behind closed doors, no longer being allowed to stay there?
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 3, 2008 @ 1;17 am
Debbie,
What has been proven might be asked. A lot of accussations. A lot of half published stuff. References to irrelevant articles and issues. Not much proven other than an attack and a an attempt at changing of doctrine that has fallen flat.
Comment by Tim G — April 3, 2008 @ 1;24 am
To All,
Sorry for the absence, but have not been able to completely monitor the comment stream and it appears that you all have been playing nice, so no need to intervene. However, I would like to pose some statements for your thoughts.
Brother Jim,
You write; “As you know, for the most part the CBF crowd is not all that fond of Wade due to his stance on innerrancy. If you will venture back to the Baptist Life forum you will notice a post on Brother Wade that I posted asking about a statement made in his comment stream. The statement was from one claiming affiliation with CBF. In that forum only the most die-hard CBFer stated that Brother Wade would not feel at home. However, on the whole he would be warmly received within the ranks of the CBF. Even Bruce Prescott is cozying up to him. It seems that the 95 Thesis he taped to the door of the CBF in Oklahoma is something forgotten by many.
Brother Les,
Great conference and sorry that I could not be there on Friday. What I was able to attend, I really enjoyed.
You write; “Why the continued interest in a disgraced former trustee of the IMB? Is he still perceived as a threat?” As for the “interest”, I am not sure there is an interest here. As I remember, and maybe you can help clarify my memory, he posted an article on Mr. Rogers neighborhood . That article revealed two things. First it revealed an inconsistency in what he said was his standard operation–informing someone before he does an article concerning them–something he did not do. Second it made me begin looking at those that are posting on his blog now vs. those that used to post there. What I see are these fringe Baptist that were once disenchanted with the SBC and are now trying to come back and change it the way they wanted it to be pre-CR.
As for his ‘threat’, you can answer that question. Who is the small church pastor that he will announce at the end of his series that he, and eventually you, will endorse for the SBC President this year? Is it a threat to have a small church pastor as President? No! It is a threat to have a small church pastor as President that is in the hip pocket of a pastor that sees nothing wrong with filing lawsuits if he doesn’t get things the way he wants them.
Brother Ron,
You know that your comparison to Brother Peter was not a complimentary one don’t you? Brother, you need to stop hanging out over here, the next thing you know, you will be compared to me. :>
You write concerning Brother Wade; “I believe he has been consistent in saying that he will not lead his church to leave the SBC
Seeing my predictions for 2008 are as good as his–he said Hillary would be elected President, but as of now it doesn’t look as if she will get the Democratic Nomination; Dr. Klouda would have a jury award her an eight figure settlement, but it looks as if that is dead in the water; and Dr. Mohler would be defeated by a strong CP pastor, well it looks as if Dr. Mohler has announced he is not going to allow his name to go forth.–I predict to you that the good people of Emmanual would not allow themselves to be drawn into that political quagmire. Shoot, if you remember he said that his position on Women Pastors was based on cultural preference. Guess what Culture he serves in at Emmanuel? Let him try and place a woman on the Elder Board at Emmanuel. He has given great leadership to that church. They Baptized over 90 people last year. That is a great year of new souls. However, Emmanuel is a Southern Baptist Church, even if her pastor’s heart yearns for his real doctrinal family in the CBF.
Sister Debbie,
You write; “Gentleman: The challenge is simple and it is this. Taking the Bible as a whole, why the women in Christ’s ministry? Paul’s ministry? You called the dance so I want to get my card punched. Your premise is a false one in that you paint those of us who disagree with a woman being a Sr. Pastor with the broad brush that we are against women serving in the church. That is not a fair assessment. Now–here is where you will have to do the ‘jive’ and that is when the dance is over–take the sufficient Bible and show me where a woman was separated by the act of ordination to do ministry.
No one has said a word here concerning Dr. Patterson’s deposition. It sure is strange to me that the ones who advocate judges have been placed in their positions by the sovereignty of God are now advocating that this same judge does not have the legal know how to interpret law. He saw these depositions before any of us did and he ruled that Dr. Patterson was innocent of the charges being advanced. He even ruled that if any one was defamed, it was Dr. Patterson.
To all,
Keep the conversation coming. I plan to dive into Joshua 6 as I lead our church to march around the walls of Jericho. I will be checking in and out but not able to give it my full attention.
Blessings,
Tim
Comment by Tim Rogers — April 3, 2008 @ 5;07 am
Tim,
Brother, don’t you know that Lottie Moon was sinless? She’s the Blessed Virgin Lottie. She was immaculately conceived. She cannot ever have done anything wrong, for this is a dogma of the faith.
Comment by Bart Barber — April 3, 2008 @ 7;45 am
Ron P,
It is a fact Dr. Patterson was not the second shooter in the Kennedy shooting. He would have missed. He is just not that good at shooting. Very far overrated as a shooter.
Jokes and raggin’ over, now for a serious moment.
Tim,
Remember, I never said one word about the judge being right, wrong or indifferent. Any one knows that although God’ in His sovereignty, places rulers over us does not mean the ruler always is obedient to God. Otherwise OJ would now be dead along with Charlie Manson and a million others who are still sucking air. Also the prisons would not be so full because the murders, baby rapers, and man burners would all be dead at the hands of the government as they should be. Judges make terrible mistakes all the time and you know it.
Yet, the judge has spoken in this case and we are to accept that and go on. You need to do that and let this thing alone and stop trying to vindicate a lie and a failure in Christian leadership.
The fact will always remain that Dr. Patterson was wrong in what he did in action and in testimony and in using poor theology in his own defense by saying the seminary is a church.
Wade is also wrong to continue this as he is. He is wrong in continuing to stir up nuts and flakes and theological dwarves with a weak argument of ecclesiology as he is doing right now. It is really not helping Dr. Klouda who was the one actually wronged in this mess due to the trustees of SWBTS allowing Dr. Patterson to run amuck with his unbiblical leadership of SWBTS and poor Christian character as has been illustrated by his abuse of Sheri Klouda and her family.
Both Wade Burleson and Paige Patterson are wrong and they both need to stand down from this circus act they have propagated against the faith, repent and again be about the Kingdom’s business. If they would both repent it may spark renewal in our convention and right a wrong that will always be such unless it is dealt with in a biblical manner.
One more thing; Ben Cole can be mean as a snake and has been more than once through this whole thing. Also, he can be very gracious and has been more than once through this whole thing.
Thus far he has not lied about one thing. Thus far he has not told all he knows either and I, for one, hope and pray he never does.
Tim, You are a good man and my friend. It is time to lay this thing down and cease to defend that which cannot be defended. We all need to begin to pray for Paige, Wade, the SWBTS trustees and the whole SBC and each other that God would forgive us our foolishness and stiff necked sinfulness and restore us to usefulness in the work of the Kingdom. We also need to pray for people like Sheri Klouda and others who have become collateral damage in the wake of pride, arrogance, rebellion, weak character, rude behavior and general sinfulness we all have displayed within the SBC through recent years. God help us all.
cb
Comment by cb scott — April 3, 2008 @ 8;09 am
Brother CB,
Go back and look at the comments and the post. I did not call the dance, but I always have my dance card ready. This dance about Dr. Klouda and Dr. Patterson was called by Debbie. Now, I have danced with you before, and I really do not like it. You are always rough, you never shave, and you are out of step on some of the tunes. This post being one of those tunes.
You and I are dancing to a tune that I did not put in the juke box. The dance that I called was to the song of “Your Cheating Heart”, and you are trying to dance to the song of “The Girl’s all Get Prettier at Closing Time”.
:>
Blessings,
Tim
Comment by Tim Rogers — April 3, 2008 @ 8;21 am
Brother Bart,
While I believe that our Sister Lottie was a virgin, I do not believe she was the result of an immaculate conception. I know that you are exaggerating that concept because it does seem that some certainly want to honor her in ways that we probably should not. We will never ‘pay-off’ money for missions, but I do not believe we are paying Lottie when we send our offering in at Christmas.
Blessings,
Tim
Comment by Tim Rogers — April 3, 2008 @ 8;28 am
Tim,
I am saying Wade and Paige are both wrong. Is this post not about some of us seeing the things we supported in the beginning start drifting another way?
That is the point of my comment.
I just think it is time to let it go and pray for God to deal with all of it.
cb
Comment by cb scott — April 3, 2008 @ 8;36 am
Brother Tim: What kind of Baptist are you anyway? At my church they don’t take too kindly to dancing — but seems you are doing a lot of it around here! What with dance cards and juke boxes and such.
Just jokin’ brother, don’t want to get started on more “extra-biblical” arguments.
Comment by heath lloyd — April 3, 2008 @ 9;35 am
Brother Heath,
Dancing is short for Choreographic Movement. :>
Blessings,
Tim
Comment by Tim Rogers — April 3, 2008 @ 9;50 am
Brother Tim,
May I interrupt this dance for just a moment?
Have you told your friends about the ‘dance’ over at http://www.SBCVoices.com, the one where you were turned into a wallflower and are now watching from the sidelines?
You do have friends still on the floor dancing and you should be encouraging people to vote to keep them on the dance floor, especially our dear friend SelahV. But we mustn’t forget Bart and Peter are there too!
Ok, that’s enough from me, got to put my head back into the books, it’s Greek paper time again and you know how I fret about getting this work done.
Sorry for interupting the dance here to bring your reader’s attention to a good dance going on elsewhere, but I thought it was important.
Have a blessed day!
Trish
Comment by Trish — April 3, 2008 @ 10;44 am
Bart: That comment concerning Lottie Moon was beneath even you. She won more souls for Christ and has more passion for the lost in China than I have ever had in my 52 years on this earth. I would pray for the passion she had.
Are you saying that she and the board at that time were sinning? Yes or no. It’s a simple straight forward answer.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 3, 2008 @ 11;22 am
Bart,
Debbie has asked you a fair question.
You made the Lottie Moon statement. It was a little strange. I think Debbie deserves an answer to her question. After all Lottie is dead. She cannot defend herself. Also, she cannot help you or hurt you in your future in the SBC so why not say what you really think?
BTW, your comment on Wade’s blog relating to Karen Bullock was right on the dime and I respect you for it.
cb
Comment by cb scott — April 3, 2008 @ 12;37 pm
Tim Rogers,
I find nothing Christ Centered in anything you write or Post. I told you a long time age I could not see your Heart(Pride/Coveting). I also told Les Puryear the same thing. I latter was able to see Les’s Heart and told Him so. God has since Blessed Brother Les and His Church beyond measure. I still am having a problem seeing your Heart. Anyone who stands behind / worships a Man who is chasing people away from God’s Church and or is a Stumbling Block to Our Church is not One of Us. Isn’t this what your post is about? Why do people want to be stumbling blocks instead of being Witnesses for Jesus Christ? I have found nothing in Wade Burleson’s Post or Comments that are not Christ Centered. I Pray you Think with Your Heart, instead of all that Head Knowledge.
In His Name
Wayne
Comment by Wayne Smith — April 4, 2008 @ 2;19 pm
Brother Wayne,
I am sorry that you feel that way. I certainly will pray that the Lord will give me this superior spiritual insight that you seem to believe you possess.
As for Brother Les, am I to understand that after you told him his heart was not right that he changed and you congratulated him on that? If that is the case, I am not certain why God needs the Holy Spirit as long as He has you.
Blessings,
Tim
Comment by Tim Rogers — April 4, 2008 @ 2;40 pm
Tim Rogers,
Nice Try, but the Holy Spirit is the one that convicts the Heart of all True Beleiver (Regenerated) and keeps them on the correct path
The Heart
Jesus provides us with clear guidance on this issue. During His earthly ministry, a young man approached the Lord and asked Him to settle an inheritance dispute with his brother. “Jesus replied, ‘Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?’ Then he said to them, ‘Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions’” (Luke 12:13-15).
This passage reveals a common human pattern. When faced with conflict, we tend to focus passionately on what our opponent has done wrong or should do to make things right. In contrast, God always calls us to focus on what is going on in our own hearts when we are at odds with others. Why? Because our heart is the wellspring of all our thoughts, words, and actions, and therefore the source of our conflicts. “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander” (Matthew 15:19).
The heart’s central role in conflict is vividly described in James 4:1-3. If you understand this passage, you will have found a key to preventing and resolving conflict.
“What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.”
This passage describes the root cause of destructive conflict: Conflicts arise from unmet desires in our hearts. When we feel we cannot be satisfied unless we have something we want or think we need, the desire turns into a demand. If someone fails to meet that desire, we condemn him in our heart and quarrel and fight to get our way. In short, conflict arises when desires grow into demands and we judge and punish those who get in our way. Let us look at this progression one step at a time. by Ken Sande
http://www.peacemaker.net
In His Name
Wayne
Comment by Wayne Smith — April 4, 2008 @ 3;28 pm
Wayne,
You have a habit of commenting on the various blogs berating people for their comments or posts. Why is it OK for you to do so? I think you should remove the plank from your own eye before you try to remove the speck from anyone else’s eye.
I also find it very interesting that you only condemn people who disagree with your exalted view of Wade. Yet, where is your condemnation of Wade making a false statement? You say that you have found nothing in Wade Burleson’s Post or Comments that are not Christ Centered. How is Wade’s false statement Christ Centered?
Finally brother, you can see no man’s heart. God’s Holy Word is clear on that! Jeremiah 17:9-10, says NO one can know the heart of man, except the Lord. It is HE and He alone who searches the heart, not sinful, impotent man. Only the One True Omnipotent God can do that. You are claiming to have an attribute of Deity that Scripture says you CAN NOT have.
Tim, is a brother that loves the Lord, loves His Word, loves His Church, loves the lost and yes, loves the SBC. We need more Godly men like Tim Rogers!
Blessings,
Ron P.
Tim,
Keep up the excellent work! I would write more words of encouragement to you, but I am walking out the door right now. I love you my brother!
Blessings,
Ron P.
Comment by Ron P. — April 4, 2008 @ 3;37 pm
Ron P,
I do notice your Christ Like comments spread out thru the Blogs, You comment with the name Ron P with no Blog or e-mail, the same as Anonymou commenter. If you are what you say you are, why Hide. Wade as just as many Warts as any Brother in Christ. Are you afraid / ashamed to show who you are? One thing, there are very few Blogger that don’t lie on these Blogs. Cb Scott,Wade burleson, and Ben Cole are among the ones that tell the truth. they may make a misstake or 2, but they are Honest.
In His Name
Wayne
Comment by Wayne Smith — April 4, 2008 @ 5;18 pm
Bro. Wayne,
I must assume that you read only that which you want to and not what is actually posted. You never addressed anything that I wrote. Instead, you attacked me for not publicly posting my email address, my name, nor having my own personal blog. Based on your comment, do you reject the book of Hebrews since the author chose not to identify himself? Not that I am comparing myself to the author, but he did not reveal his name either. Your attack on me is a common diversionary tactic, that will not work.
In your comments here, you have attacked the character of Tim, as you do with anyone else who does not agree with Wade and Ben (or CB). Many of us debate the issues, post our convictions and viewpoints, point out inconsistencies, and do all of the above with fervor, emotions on our sleeves, and do it without wanting to compromise the Word of God. But you, continually shout people down in your writings, which does not contribute to the actual issues. Your points generally, though not always, consist of stating that Wade, Ben (and especially CB) is always right. That is not discussing the issues. That is blind admiration of which you are entitled to, but again, it contributes nothing to the conversation.
In this post, Tim has only shown that many who have agreed with Wade in the past on certain issues, are now left wondering what in the world has happened since he has taken a hard left theological turn and has continued his pattern of the last couple of years to disparage and attack so many. Tim also pointed out that Wade, within a span of less than 48 hours, has contradicted himself on a major issue within our Convention. One of the two statements IS FALSE. Either he did not vote for the BFM2K, or he did. But it can not be both. Though I am sure he did not intend to, his comments within the context of both, give the appearance that he will say anything to advance his agenda.
Finally, you have portrayed nearly all of the SBC bloggers as liars, except for CB, Wade and Ben. That is a very broad brush in which you have impugned the character of a number of Godly men and women. You, my brother, should apologize.
Ron P.
Comment by Ron P. — April 5, 2008 @ 1;16 am
Wayne,
You are a fine man. You have lived long and served well. Your heart is passionate and you have a warrior’s spirit. I greatly respect you for that.
I do ask you to listen to RonP here. I have shared with you many times that I am not always right. None of us are. We are all prone to error.
To continue to say we are always right is to make the same mistake many make when they declare Paige and others right simply because of who they once were and the positions they now hold.
Please rethink your position here. No one is always right, especially me.
cb
Comment by cb scott — April 5, 2008 @ 5;44 am
Tim Rogers,
I ask you what kind of Brother in Christ would devote an entire Post to attacking a Brother in Christ. You falsely blame you Brother for many things, even though others have said they and they alone are responsible.
Yes you and the envious / nervous one that talks without setting still and write / dances around every question ask of him.
In His Name
Wayne
Comment by Wayne Smith — April 5, 2008 @ 10;48 am
Brother Wayne,
I respect you as an elder of mine. You deserve that respect and I will give it to you. At the same time, I will not back down from what is written. I have given an illustration and then posted exactly what was written, without pulling it out of context or content.
I have not falsely blamed anyone of anything. I have merely pointed out that according to the writings that is being promoted by the blogger in question, he is more doctrinally aligned with the group of Baptist that left the SBC in 1992. You are welcome to disagree with me on this issue and you have every right to post your disagreement here.
However, you have been respected by others in this comment stream and have also been taken to task with your comments. It seems that you do not desire to own your words as you have accused me of calling other bloggers liars, but in doing so you have insinuated that I am one. Brother’s Ron P and CB have called your attention to this dichotomy of comments that you seem to push. I encourage you to re-read your comments concerning my post and act on the Holy Spirit’s conviction appropriately.
Blessings,
Tim
Comment by Tim Rogers — April 5, 2008 @ 11;43 am
Ron P, the Anonymous One,
One thing, there are very few Blogger that don’t lie on these Blogs. CB Scott, Wade Burleson, and Ben Cole are among the ones that tell the truth, they may make a mistake or 2, but they are Honest.
I should have said of the Blogs I read. One thing, there are very few Blogger that tell lies on these Blogs. CB Scott, Wade Burleson, and Ben Cole are among the ones that tell the truth, they may make a mistake or 2, but they are Honest.
Most of the Blogs I read are a Witness for Jesus Christ.
Ron P you are welcome to come out of your Closet anytime now.
I am not a Groupie of Wade Burleson or anyone else. I call thing as I see them thru the Eyes and Ears that my Blessed God gave me.
Tim and CE Scott,
I have correct my post as above.
Tim you said: As for his ‘threat’, you can answer that question. Who is the small church pastor that he will announce at the end of his series that he, and eventually you, will endorse for the SBC President this year? Is it a threat to have a small church pastor as President? No! It is a threat to have a small church pastor as President that is in the hip pocket of a pastor that sees nothing wrong with filing lawsuits if he doesn’t get things the way he wants them.
Tim, Did you not read the e-mail from Dr. Sheri Klouda and what she said,
In His Name
Wayne
Comment by Wayne Smith — April 5, 2008 @ 12;29 pm
Tim,
Some Food for Thought, Read Esther 5:1-14.
Haman went out that day happy and in high spirits. But when he saw Mordecai at the king’s gate and observed that he neither rose nor showed fear in his presence, he was filled with rage against Mordecai. (Esther 5:9, NIV)
Unresolved hatred can become an all-consuming obsession. Hatred and bitterness are like weeds with long roots that grow in the heart and corrupt all of life. Haman was so consumed with hatred toward Mordecai that he could not even enjoy the honor of being invited to Esther’s party. Hebrews 12:15 warns us to watch out “that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.” Don’t let hatred and its resulting bitterness build in your heart. Like Haman, you will find it backfiring against you (see Esther 6:13; 7:9-10). If the mere mention of someone’s name provokes you to anger, confess your bitterness as sin. Ignoring bitterness, hiding it from others, or making superficial changes in behavior is not enough. If bitterness isn’t completely removed, it will grow back, making matters worse.
In His Name
Wayne
Comment by Wayne Smith — April 5, 2008 @ 4;20 pm
Wayne,
Tim has taken no more (actually less, actually far less) people to task than has Wade, Ben or cb.
This very post is a post wherein he challenges our taking others to task. He even recites what he believes to be some of our motivations in doing so. For my part, he is very close in describing my motivations. I cannot, nor have the right, to speak for others to whom this post may refer.
If you then noticed I posted a comment that was pretty rough on Tim. It questioned his motivation and that of others. In that comment I said both Paige and Wade had been wrong on some things and both needed to stand down from this circus act.
I also said Ben can be mean as a snake. He can be and I can also and have been worse, for that matter.
Tim did not really come back all that hard, although I did most certainly open the door for it.
Wayne, it is the nature of Baptist blogs to be combative. That is the nature of the beast.
If you throw your dog in the ring he is going to get his ear chewed by somebody’s dog sooner or later. Or, if you throw your dog in on people like Ben Cole, Peter Lumpkins, Bart Barber, Volfan007, the Littleton Bros. or cb you might be met with an alligator dressed up to look like a dog and get your whole head snapped off.
Tim and Wade fight more like a Mongoose. They run you ’round and ’round the ring ’till you are exhausted and then they try to bite you behind the neck for a more painless kill. (less bloody than a snapped off head)
Wayne, that is just the way of the Baptist blogger in Blog Town. Tim is not bitter. He is just mostly stubborn about things and has a tendency defend wrong causes (just as do I) from time to time.
He is a good guy and has a very benevolent heart. Besides, he once fell 500 feet from a plane. So you gotta “cut him a little slack.” His ‘chute packer did. About 500 feet worth.
cb
Comment by cb scott — April 5, 2008 @ 6;13 pm
CB,
Thanks for your advice. Their are not many people on the Blogs that I hold in Higher Esteem than I do you CB. I know you are a Human just like the rest of the Bloggers and subject to Error. I also know you to be the first to admit your shortcomings.
I did notice you were using the KJV of the Bible but I will nerver hold that against you, as it was authorized by an English King and my wife being British, what can I say.
May God Bless you and Yours.
In His Name
Wayne
Comment by Wayne Smith — April 5, 2008 @ 8;15 pm
Thank you, Wayne.
May God grant us opportunity to visit face-to-face in this life.
cb
Comment by cb scott — April 5, 2008 @ 8;38 pm
Tim,
I have answered your question relating to “Christian hedonism” in the comment thread on my last post. I hope you get time to read it. It was a good question, causing me to think a little before answering. I am sure you will consider me thinking before answering a pleasant change.
cb
Comment by cb scott — April 7, 2008 @ 7;40 am
Brother CB,
That is my problem, I do not think before I answer. However, I do have an excuse, I do not have anything to think with. :>
Blessings,
Tim
Comment by Tim Rogers — April 7, 2008 @ 4;38 pm
Wow, if only you would analyze Patterson in this way!
Comment by Lin — April 12, 2008 @ 9;00 pm
“Brother, don’t you know that Lottie Moon was sinless? She’s the Blessed Virgin Lottie. She was immaculately conceived. She cannot ever have done anything wrong, for this is a dogma of the faith.”
Thank you for revealing where your heart is here.
Comment by Lin — April 13, 2008 @ 10;26 am