Duck and Cover! UPDATED
I have made some editorial changes for better readability.
I was born in 1959. Therefore, the mid 1960’s hold some of my first memories. One such memory is the discussion I heard from my father and aunt about the Cuban Missile Crisis. I remember sitting on the front porch hearing their political meanderings moving from that crisis to the Duck and Cover drills held in schools all across America because The USSR had nuclear weapons and they were pointed at major cities in the United States. During these drills, students were told what to do.
For example, when the warning bells rang, students were to stop what they were doing and hide under their desk to await further instructions. I remember hearing, as I grew older, from others that were students in the 50’s about how afraid they were during those times. It seems that they were afraid that one day that they would hear the bells ring and it would not be a drill. It was during such times as this that people were encouraged to go out and build their own bomb shelters in their back yards. There were even recommendations as to what needed to be in the bomb shelter. It seemed that many in this time were warned of a coming disaster that everyone needed to be prepared and if you were not prepared it was your own fault if your family was lost to the coming doom. Some may argue that I am overstating the fear from that era, but one can think back eight years to the beginning of 2000 when the Y2K bug was propagated as a coming destruction. Countries that did not spend as much money on getting prepared fared as well if not better than countries that spent considerable amounts.
All of this to remind you that our leaders sometimes overstate some things for who knows what particular reason. It is this same type of overstating that I see concerning the recent stats from the SBC Annual Church Profile. The BP story from this profile points to the Baptismal rates being the lowest since 1987. This story is not something we should take lightly. We should be very concerned about these rates falling and we should come together to do something about it. Dr. Bobby Welch issued a clarion call to the convention during his presidency and was marginalized by some as being overzealous about promoting such a thing as one million baptisms. Much to the surprise of some in our convention the Baptism rates feel further instead of increasing. This zealousness in promoting baptisms resulted in allowing local churches to have their baptismal services during the annual convention, something else that caused further marginalization. Somehow, during his presidency, a bus was purchased for him to use to promote leading people to faith and helping to increase baptisms. This produced churches holding public baptisms at local lakes and swimming pools. No doubt that Dr. Welch increased the understanding that as Baptist churches we should be about baptizing. However, with this promotion, why has it produced lower rates? Could it be sarcastic barbs privately issued forth from some that may be in leadership positions? Could it be the lack of other convention leaders to get behind something like this for fear of the marginalization that will come? Who know?!?!
From this latest report we now have our leading researcher pointing, not to the decline in baptisms, but the decline in church membership. Not only that but one of our Seminary Presidents broke his standing policy of not commenting on blogs to being among the first to comment. Dr. Akin certainly offered some insight about the need for Southern Baptist to draw closer to God and to seek his face. I commend him on his assessment of SB’s need for revival. However, the article was about overall SB church membership being down. Dr. Alvin Reid followed up in a comment about the need for sharing the gospel and living the gospel, as he said in one sentence, ‘when we leave church and go to the local restaurant and leave a measly tip’. It seems that Dr. Reid, as I have come to expect of him, brings everything back to evangelism being more than just guiding someone down the Romans Road. He presents great insight into evangelistic practices and how he is doing what he is preaching with the students that he teaches. I also know that from experience. Once again, as with Dr. Akin, it seems that Dr. Reid has missed that the article was about Church membership being down from 2006.
Move with me from the above blog reporting this decline to another blog where I first saw the link to Dr. Stetzer’s article. In this comment stream one certainly sees the sky is falling theme that some are using to try and create a crisis to make changes happen faster. One commenter states the we have not lost the central tenets of the gospel. I would agree with that statement. I do not know of any Southern Baptist Church that does not believe in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He goes on to state in question form; Have we stopped living and preaching the totality of the gospel? I believe living and preaching is a definition that needs to be defined. For some, living and preaching is tied to this type of initiative, and for others going green has nothing to do with living the gospel. Not that I advocate destroying the land and water supplies, but me throwing my child’s happy meal wrapper out of the window, certainly is not the same as ripping out a page of scripture.
What does it mean to live and preach the totality of the Gospel? It seems that language is in constant change. What is the totality of the Gospel? As I understand the totality of the Gospel, it is justification, sanctification, and glorification. Fleshed out, it is the presentation, identification, and the finalization of the life that God has called us as Christians. In the presentation, one is presented the facts from Scripture and as the Holy Spirit draws one to the Father that one responds to the free gift of salvation. One then, as a result of that decision freely identifies oneself in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ through the physical act of Baptism by immersion into the body of Christ which is actualized in the presence of the local church. One continues being drawn closer to Christ through the disciplines of the Faith by a discipling mentor/mentoree relationship, sharing Christ with others as one follows the journey God has purposed. Then one’s salvific finalization is experienced through either the physical death that is definite, or the rapture of the church, which I believe will happen in the millennium I more intimately refer to as Pre. That is what has most often been referred to as the totality of the Gospel, (minus the Pre-millennium thing).
Well, you have heard my assessment of what others have written, allow me to give my assessment of the ACP report. If one would click on the picture it will enlarge to the point that it can be read. As it becomes readable one will find some interesting figures. We are being told by some that the decline of younger leaders is the reason that we see a decline in church membership. However, we see that we have added 473 churches since 2006. I understand that one can argue about what constitutes a church, but we certainly seem to see that number increase. These probably are church starts and that should speak something good about what we are doing. An argument can also be made that out of 44k churches1/10 of one % is not that strong. Also, while we show a .24% decrease in Church Membership, we are showing a .16% increase in Worship Attendance. Here is another interesting fact. We are showing a .08% drop in Other Additions. This to me is an exciting statistic because for years we were told that we must stop swapping the sheep and begin converting the goats. Another statistic that excites me is the Disciple Training Enrollment, we have seen that increase .09%. Why does this excite me? Because I believe the if this increases, then the Total Church Membership numbers will continue to fall. Why? Because as a disciple we will continue to make certain that we maintain regenerate church membership on our roles.
Bottom Line
For me the bottom line is that we do need to be concerned, but we do not need to issue a Sky if Falling warning to our people. Do you realize that for the past two conventions we have seen a public discussion of regenerate church membership? This discussion, I believe, has been ongoing among pastors across the convention. I know that I have been hearing this discussion since I was in seminary about how churches should clear their roles of church members, that no one could find, and also those one could find but were not planning to attend any more. I believe that the decline in Church Membership totals certainly has something to do with churches taking seriously the call for a regenerate church membership.
Also, the increase in Discipleship Training is exciting because, as stated above, if one becomes a better disciple, one will take seriously the accountability of Hebrews 10:25, and one will evangelize more. If one evangelizes more, one will see baptisms in the local church increase, if one sees baptisms in the local church increase, one will see church membership begin to increase again. Of course I believe the church membership increase will go through a huge decline before it begins increasing. Why? It seems that we are maintaining people on our church roles that are either already in glory, or living somewhere else, or are not regenerate. Discipleship will handle much of this.
Where does this leave us? I believe we certainly need to be concerned with the drop in Baptisms. That is what concerns local pastors, or should. Also, we need to make certain that we compare apples to apples before we announce the sky is falling and the SBC is in decline based on Church Membership Totals. What do I mean? If you read this article thoroughly, you will find Dr. Rainer pointing out something very significant. 1,300 fewer churches submitted 2007 ACP data than the number in 2006. According to Lifeway Research the SBC is 80% small churches. Lifeway Research clasifies small churches as those fewer than 150, according to Dr. Brad Waggoner now VP of Holman Publishing. I will stay really safe and take the figure 50 and apply it to the 1300 churches that did not submit a ACP in 2007, but did in 2006. That means 65,000 church members went unreported in 2007 that were reported by these 1300 churches in 2006. We are showing a drop of 39,326 church members and are being told that the SBC is in decline. Well, I just possible found 65,000 church members that were not even reported. Of course one could argue that these churches are ones that have disengaged. But do we know that or could it be that they simply did not meet the deadline for reporting and will be included in next year’s numbers? This is the reason why I believe to use Total Church Membership numbers as one’s basis to state the SBC is in decline is kind of–not accurate.
All I am saying is that we need to focus on the Baptism rates. That definitely is something that should concern everyone.
Tim: First of all thank you so much(and that seems so inadequate to say) for you and the other SBCToday guys who posted for prayer on that blog and the comments. I can’t adequately express what that meant to my family, especially my daughter. It meant everything.
Ed said that there would be those who would give a different view of the statistics, however my question would be what about how Ed Stetzer articulated it, wouldn’t he know better what the numbers mean? I think we should be more concerned than just baptisms, also consider many of those baptism numbers are possibly rebaptisms, and we should be concerned for the very reasons Alan and Ed articulated. What if you are wrong and it is just as they, I , and others have said. Which I believe strongly it is.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 24, 2008 @ 2;36 pm
Sister Debbie,
Welcome back, life has been a little mundane without you.
I do pray that your daughter is navigating the grief process fine. I know the pain probably can seem unbearable at times.
No doubt Brother Ed would know the numbers better than I. However, Brother Malcolm has clearly articulated over at SBC Today more than I am saying here. He certainly would know the numbers as well as Brother Ed. My point is probably more focused on Baptismal numbers. While Brother Malcolm focuses on the presumption of the numbers. He correctly points out that Brother Ed operates from a presumption that everyone has a correct theology. We certainly can see evidence that that is not so from time to time.
Blessings,
Tim
Comment by Tim Rogers — April 24, 2008 @ 3;03 pm
Tim,
It seems that these numbers when put in the larger context simply show that the SBC is no different than most denominations. Sure, some are declining faster than others. But in this post-denominational world, denominations are on the decline.
There exists an apathy among the younger generations towards religion in general and surely the rise of non-denominationalism, specifically these large unaffiliated evangelical mega churches have not helped the SBC.
I’m not one who believes that denominations will eventually die out. But it’s safe to say that denominations will suffer in terms of numbers for the foreseeable future - SBC included.
Comment by Big Daddy Weave — April 24, 2008 @ 6;30 pm
Tim: My short answer is to watch the video interview with Ed Stetzer posted on both SBC voices and Chris Elrod’s blog. I would agree with most of what Ed said.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 24, 2008 @ 7;33 pm
B’Diddy,
You make some good points. I would agree with you as to the denominations beginning to see experience the results of a post modern/organizational fear society. As you know the CBF-NC are experiencing some marked increase, which is not really a result of new growth but a result of swapped growth. As I say, I believe the Baptismal #’s should be something of concern.
Sister Debbie,
I agree that Brother Ed’s video interview is one of insight. I do not disagree completely with what he is saying. I just disagree with the seemingly ’sky is falling’ posture he takes with the decline of the SBC.
Blessings,
Tim
Comment by Tim Rogers — April 24, 2008 @ 7;49 pm
Tim, my brother from NC (the home of suspect BBQ
),
I might just be bringing in a whole new twist…in the last days difficult times will come…men will be lovers of self…they will not stand for the truth…they will seek teachers who are willing to tickle their ears…
We most certainly need a constant, and renewed in some cases, commitment to our commission as given by our Lord…BUT to say that we should expect a “GCR” to produce what I feel the reforming/emerging friendly crowd to be anticipating—some giant upswing in baptismal numbers and a new great awakening—to be contradistinctive to what I read in Scripture. In these difficult days ecumenical apostasy will rule the wider evangelical world rather than faithfulness to the Gospel.
Making necessary connection to the people around us is warranted. A wholesale sell-out to the garb of post-modernism and post-denominationalism is not what is required to make such connections. Doing such is simply the further advancement of churches into the ecumenical quagmire which will leave people open to those deceptive teachers. Just look at the groundswell of advocacy for the pabulum of Joel Osteen’s reincarnation of ‘positive/possibility thinking’…by none other than the likes of Ed Young, Jr.!
I sure hope we as Southern Baptists don’t count the numbers of Osteen and decide that his ‘remarkable increase’ is blessed of God.
SOLA GRATIA!
Comment by Scott Gordon — April 24, 2008 @ 9;31 pm
Tim,
You know I love you, brother. But I think that to look at the past decade of ACP reports and reject the notion that the SBC has entered into actual decline is to simply be in a state of denial.
Ed’s analysis was quite simple. The baptism rates have dropped steadily. Membership rates, while showing growth, have been showing slower growth until, finally, last year’s report showed a decline. Presto. The peak was reached. It’s the combination of the baptism and membership decline that caused him to “raise the red flag.”
Yes, there are a few simple reasons why there were so many non-reporting churches. Most are unengaged / uninterested (functionally out of the SBC by their non-participation. Many others are simply closing their doors. Still, many people are going on to glory, and we’re not filling their seats. As the builders pass on in increasing numbers, this rate of decline will accelerate rapidly.
We could all think happy thoughts, click our heels together and say, “There’s no place like choir practice…” but our convention is declining. And the best and brightest of the young folk are leaving. It IS happening.
Comment by Geoff Baggett — April 24, 2008 @ 9;42 pm
Scott: I knew someone would give that answer. I disagree but I was waiting for someone to give it.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 24, 2008 @ 11;14 pm
Brother Scott,
You write; Making necessary connection to the people around us is warranted. A wholesale sell-out to the garb of post-modernism and post-denominationalism is not what is required to make such connections. I would agree. I personally do not agree that Dr. Stetzer is on a wholesale sell-out, but he does seem to advocate that our non participation in partnership outside of the convention is a reason for this decline. You can see the video here.
Brother Geoff,
Please do not take my article as one that is in disagreement with the facts of shown in the ACP profiles. Dr. Stetzer has eloquently spoken about how there is an 83% return on profiles. That is an excellent response rate. What I do disagree with is that for many years we have all spoken about how the Total Church Membership #’s are not accurate and certainly not an accurate reporting of what is going on in the SBC. It has been stated in group discussions also on the blogs that the Worship Attendance numbers are more inclined as to an accurate rendering of what we are doing as a convention. Here we have the numbers up that everyone agrees is more accurate as to what we are doing and the numbers that we have all said is not really an accurate indicator are down. What is the result of these #’s? The call out of Nashville that the SBC is now just like every other denomination and are experiencing decline. We will close our doors in a couple of years if we do not become like someone else. It has to be that we are running young leaders off by the 1000’s. I just am not ready to buy into all of the solutions that Dr. Stetzer has given for his diagnosis of what we need to do to fix it. But not to worry. I am not going to fight about this thing. I will do what I can to fix it. Everyone else can fight about it. However, because I disagree with someone and voice my disagreement does not mean that I am fighting about it. But, in Dr. Stetzer’s video, that is the way he makes it sound. Those who disagree and are either sticking their heads in the sand or they are just looking for a fight.
Blessings,
Tim
Comment by Tim Rogers — April 25, 2008 @ 6;26 am
Tim,
I think Scott Gordon and Geoff Baggett make valid points; very valid indeed.
I also think that Reid and Akin are actually cutting to the chase as to the remedy of our problem. Darrell Robinson said years ago and Bobby Welch said recently that there are few problems that true evangelism cannot not fix. And Akin is right about the need of repentance.
Big Daddy is dead on about culture and denominations. Frankly, we have some very strong Christian, Kingdom builders within our SB churches today who care not “one whit” about the nature of the SBC. They just come to our fellowships because they see something happening for God. Their numbers are growing. I remember when I could get as many as 40 people between 20-30 years of age to go to the SBC and do odd-man-out to determine who of the group would be voting messengers. In recent years I cannot get 5 of the same age group to go even if we offer to pay their way. They are just not interested and not willing to give their limited free time to doing it.
I especially think Scott Gordon is making a valid statement. I made an effort to listen to Osteen on several occasions of late. Where is the gospel in his preaching? Yet, he fills up a stadium. Then there is Hinn, Crouch and the TBN crowd; flakes, each and every one. Also when people flock to read and listen to such as Pagitt, Jones and McLaren and call their apostate babble truth it is a sign of the times.
We have a band of nuts and flakes who camp out at a couple of popular blogs here in Blogtown waiting to come down like vultures on anything of a true and standard Baptist Identity. We really are in trouble. It cannot be denied.
I realize there is a multitude of factors contributing to this as has been well pointed out here by those who are commenting.
I also believe that Reid and Akin have hit upon the bedrock of the remedy. True repentance and true evangelism.
cb
Comment by cb scott — April 25, 2008 @ 8;28 am
Brother CB,
Are you saying it is time to start the Duck and Cover drills of embracing the emerging church theology, or lack thereof, in order to attract and place in leadership these younger leaders that have this groupie mentality about those leaders?
Blessings,
Tim
Comment by Tim Rogers — April 25, 2008 @ 8;47 am
Tim,
Did you read one word of what I just said? Did you read the comments to which I referenced in this thread?
In effect, what I said was that we need true repentance and true evangelism. I think I covered the nut and flake stuff rather sufficiently, you ‘chuteless plane jumper.
cb
Comment by cb scott — April 25, 2008 @ 9;03 am
another trend to be considered is that a lot of people are not going to sunday school anymore. they attend worship services only. a lot of them never join the church. we’ve been noticing this around these parts. have yall?
david
Comment by volfan007 — April 25, 2008 @ 9;09 am
Vol,
Yes. I think you are on to a great truth. There was a time when I could make 10 visits on Saturday morning inviting people to Bible study in our Sunday School and 6-8 of those people would show up.
Today I can make 15 visits on Saturday morning and I feel very fortunate, indeed if 1 shows up in Sunday School.
What I am gong to tell you is a fact. Our Sunday School workers make an average of 270-300 contacts each week other than during the weeks of July 4, Thanksgiving and Christmas.
This past Sunday we had 177 in Sunday School. 15 years ago we would have had 450-500 in Sunday School based on that number of weekly contacts.
Dylan was right; “The Times, They Are A changin’
cb
Comment by cb scott — April 25, 2008 @ 9;35 am
I don’t think people want a hit and run invite.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 26, 2008 @ 1;27 am
Your bitterness is a sad thing , Debbie.
Comment by cb scott — April 26, 2008 @ 2;01 am
This is not bitterness CB, I don’t even know where that comment would come from. People do not appreciate hit and run initiations to church. Knocking door to door doesn’t require any investment. Getting to know the lost and developing a relationship with them requires time and effort. I vote on the latter.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 27, 2008 @ 12;38 am
Your misjudgment of me is a sad thing CB. And that should be invitations.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 27, 2008 @ 12;44 am
Debbie,
How will you ever get to know the lost and develop a relationship with them if you don’t “invest” in that initial “knocking on the door?” Unless your community is different that then ones we have been in, lost people are not flocking to the church.
How else do you initiate a personal contact with someone new in your community without knocking on their door and letting them know who you are, sharing information about your church and asking how you can pray for them and their family?
It is always easier to sit and say what we should or shouldn’t do than it is to do something. The “investment” is in the kingdom and being willing to “go and tell.”
I believe the main point of CB’s comment was that lost people are no longer flocking to churches. “Ringing the church bell on Sunday morning” does not produce the same results that it did 50 years ago.
Karen
Comment by Karen Scott — April 27, 2008 @ 7;24 am
Karen, there’s a little town in Texas that has two SBC churches. I am praying someone from either one of those churches goes knocking on my granddaughter’s door. Please join me in praying for this to occur. I pray they go door-to-door with VBS flyers too. Sometimes that is all it takes and I am grateful for those who go. selahV
Comment by selahV — April 27, 2008 @ 10;24 pm
Karen: My point is that it has been done and it’s not working. I believe going to what has already been done and failed is futile. Now I realize I am perceived as angry, bitter etc. That is simply not true. Frustrated? Yes. I am talking about teaching the congregation to befriend, ask over for dinner, listen to, someone they know who is lost. I have done this. Over and over. It’s worth the investment, then give the gospel. People do not want the knocking on the door. They do not trust or want leaflets hanging on their door to invite them to church. I know as I hear this all the time from those I’ve become close enough to who have told me. A gay person is not going to feel welcome in church just because their is a knock on the door. Not all you are going to knock on are families. There are drug dealers, drug takers, alcoholics, those who have been already beaten down by a church or churches. It’s not as easy out there as everyone is making it and it requires an investment in love and lots of time. Friendships are what are going to win people to Christ not a knock on the door. Ask any missionary.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 27, 2008 @ 11;17 pm
Debbie, not everyone is a drug dealer, addict or alcoholic. There are regular folk living in those houses who, for whatever reason, have either left the churches or moved to another area and have gotten away from church. They might just need a nudge from a knock on the door. Some are simply waiting and do not even know it for someone to come see them. Why do you think the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses have flourished so? selahV
Comment by selahV — April 27, 2008 @ 11;43 pm
SelahV,
I will add your granddaughter to my prayer list, specifically, that someone from one or both of those churches will care enough to knock on her door.
Debbie,
Without knocking on the door, we will only befriend those with whom we come in contact with on a daily basis which we should already be doing. Behind “un-touched doors” are “un-touched souls who will never come in contact with anyone who will “befriend” them in Jesus name. Without knocking on the door you will never be aware of those behind the door who need “a cup of cold water in Jesus name.”
We have an 80+ year old gentleman in our church who knocks on the door of each and every new comer in our community. He invites them to church and asks if he can pray with them. He is also observant and searches for a possible need in their life. He then comes back to church and makes a prospect card which will generate another visit from someone else. He also makes sure that the newcomer’s need is taken care of by himself or someone else in the church and he is just one of many who does this.
That first knock was how we found out about the children who are now in our care. Knocking is important, but you are correct it should not end with a knock, however it must begin with a knock.
The drug dealer, drug addicts, alcoholics, gays? We live in Birmingham and we minister to these people each and every day. We also minister to the children who live in their homes through VBS, Sunday School, back yard Bible clubs and other children’s ministry. For many of those children it is the first time they have ever experienced the love of God or even a kind word. We have even been able to reach some of the parents who were addicts or alcoholics because we knocked on their doors and ministered to their children. But without that first knock we would not have known about them or their children.
Inviting the lost to dinner, cleaning their yards, helping them to get to the store and doctor, taking care of their sick or injured dogs, goats and rabbits, buying their lunch or a cup of coffee and raising their children are things that CB and I have been doing for 30+ years even before books were written about the concept.
I know that you will not reach everyone behind the door on which you knock, but there are countless numbers of people who tell us that you are the “first person who has knocked” on our door or offered to help us with anything. The majority of people on my shut-ins list came from knocking on doors and finding out that their home church had not knocked on their door in years. They had been abandoned by churches who have quit knocking. We have been able to minister to these people and share Christ with them every week. We have had a couple of these shut-ins receive Christ some who have been members of churches for years, but had not been saved. If we had not knocked, the lady who died several months ago would have entered eternity lost and without Christ.
Debbie you say that “friendships are what wins people to Christ?” Friendships are friendships and very good things but, it is the power of the gospel that saves people.
Karen
Comment by Karen Scott — April 28, 2008 @ 6;50 am
Good points Karen. I see where both you and Harriette are coming from. Thank you.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 28, 2008 @ 10;31 am
Ben Macklin has given a terrific response in Bart’s blog that addresses exactly what I am saying here. It may clarify my point. It’s what I see on a daily basis and these are the ones that are the norm today. This is our challenge.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 29, 2008 @ 10;20 am
Debbie,
I have taken a break from other things to respond to Ben Macklin on Bart’s blog. The challenge is real and the way to meet it has been provided. The sky does not have to fall. Your friends and neighbors can be saved no matter their social circumstance. That is, if we take the gospel, as did Paul take the gospel to the Greeks of Mars Hill, and proclaim it in our cultural shift as he did in that one, compromising nothing, standing for truth and biblical purity as did our Baptist forefathers, not worrying about the sky falling; for the sky is in the Hands of Holy God.
We just need to be faithful.
cb
Comment by cb scott — April 29, 2008 @ 11;45 am
To All -
Yes, I do knock on doors and I encourage others to do the same; it prevents me being shot at for going through open windows. And Yes, we do need to change. In all seriousness, knocking on doors (hyperbole aside) works to reach ____% of people. There are also 1 million new ways to it reach people that we ALSO need to use.
Ben Macklin
Comment by Ben Macklin — April 29, 2008 @ 2;43 pm
CB: I understand what you are saying and do agree.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 29, 2008 @ 2;59 pm
CB: I will repeat that I agree with all that Ben has said. OK, knocking on doors can be incorporated. That was convincing to me when Karen wrote her last post. I cannot argue with anything that she said.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 29, 2008 @ 3;33 pm
tim,
you need to go to chadwick “batman” ivester’s blog and see yourself dressed in a pink suit. it’s fuuuuuunnnnyyy!
david
Comment by volfan007 — April 30, 2008 @ 9;36 am